1925 AC Six for sale (restoration required)

[Old Crock]

I remember this car from 35 years ago! It was owned by a lady named Freda Palmer. It is just the same now, with original colour scheme (Green with red pinstripe) and original seating. It disappeared for some years, looks like some stripping started for restoration though it is said that all parts are there. This was a lovely car and was portrayed on the back cover of the Profile Publications booklet on the AC Six. It looks a relatively easy restoration, to return it to former glory.

It's on Ebay. I don't know the reserve:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374268407817?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20211130125621%26meid%3Db928346200434b8f9434ffdbfcc2ae26%26pid%3D101465%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D275471211656%26itm%3D374268407817%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D3817808&_trksid=p3817808.c101465.m3507

[Andrey1976b]

Hi,

Serial number?

[colin ac]

You are quite right in everything but the car has not been partially stripped for restoration its top glass has been removed and is with the car it hasn't been touched apart from turning engine over and moving around workshop (pushing)
Cheers 🍻

[Old Crock]

....the car has not been partially stripped for restoration.....

Colin , I wrote this as the water pump, cut-out, ammeter panel switches, horn and the front badges are missing (plus the fuel supply is non-original). Are these parts in the garage somewhere, as it's advertised as being complete? The number plate is covered up - I'm assuming it still carries its original registration (or has this been sold)? I note it's an early car (=1925) so does not have front wheel brakes. It's not an Acedes by the way, that came later, it's an Aceca.

Serial number?

11996

I do have someone who is going to bid for the car.....

[colin ac]

Thankyou for putting me straight on model and details of missing parts all the years I've owned her I always thought it was an acedes (every day is a school day) in my description it is by and large complete but photos reveal things I didn't realise,  that's the experienced eye as for you.
As for fuel supply I have looked at pictures and there isn't a fuel supply picture are you confusing vacum tank for wipers as they do look a bit odd.
Kind Regards colin

[Old Crock]

Hi Colin

Early cars had gravity-feed to the carb, from a scuttle-mounted tank. Later cars had an AutoVac, a vacuum system, off the inlet manifold, that drew fuel from a rear tank. I thought, at first, you had some form of vacuum fuel supply (the tank on the offside bulkhead) or it was a secondary tank (from the scuttle tank). With a scuttle tank, which you clearly have (= filler on dashboard), then the fuel would be gravity fed. The black tank I assume is for the wipers - a vacuum wiper system was not supplied originally, nor is the windscreen-mounted control correct. You'll see the wipers would not work anyway, as the arm is too long and the blade would be overlapping both the upper and lower panes of glass. The bulkhead equipment and electrics will need completely sorting (e.g. the dynamo wiring is poor). Another observation is that the dashboard is lacking a clock, these were supplied certainly from 1924, so the current wooden dash may have been replaced in the past. The horn, mentioned earlier, would have had a button on a steering wheel spoke (i.e. not the centre).

All the above may appear that I'm being negative, but they are minor really -  the car would be a very good, and relatively straightforward restoration project. Of course, we don't know about the engine, that's the unknown at the  moment....

[Andrey1976b]

Serial number?

11996

I do have someone who is going to bid for the car.....

Thank you!

I have a question. What is the difference between Ace, Aceca, Magma, Aero versions?

[Old Crock]

I have a question. What is the difference between Ace, Aceca, Magma, Aero versions?

Hi Andrey

The first two (Ace and Aceca) were models – the Aceca was first introduced in 1925 and the Ace first introduced in 1933. Later in the early 1950's these model terms, with the A and C beginning letters, were brought out of hibernation and re-used for new model introductions - the Ace being the well-known two-seater sport car, with soft top, and the Aceca being the closed version (a closed coupe) with a fastback design. The name Ace was then used again for another model in 1993, the Ace Brooklands.

The Magna (note spelling on your posting) was a name used for a new range of models in 1928 - design and engineering was moving at pace and these models had the most modern changes for the time e.g. coil ignition, semi-elliptic springs, even hydraulic brakes as the company neared voluntary liquidation.

The Aero name was used as a design concept by many companies in the 1930's, not just AC, and is taken from 'aero-dynamic' or streamlined (yet some were far from that, being bulky cars). The name Aero was characterised by a roof line that then sloped down to the end of the car, no protrusion of boot lids/spare wheels and so on.  In 1934 Riley advertised their Kestrel model having an 'Aero-Line' design. Additionally, in the pre-war years there were many names used for body types, each having a distinct meaning. Examples being tourer, coupe, torpedo, sedanca, roadster and so on. Aero is yet another.

[Andrey1976b]

I have a question. What is the difference between Ace, Aceca, Magma, Aero versions?

Hi Andrey

The first two (Ace and Aceca) were models – the Aceca was first introduced in 1925 and the Ace first introduced in 1933. Later in the early 1950's these model terms, with the A and C beginning letters, were brought out of hibernation and re-used for new model introductions - the Ace being the well-known two-seater sport car, with soft top, and the Aceca being the closed version (a closed coupe) with a fastback design. The name Ace was then used again for another model in 1993, the Ace Brooklands.

The Magna (note spelling on your posting) was a name used for a new range of models in 1928 - design and engineering was moving at pace and these models had the most modern changes for the time e.g. coil ignition, semi-elliptic springs, even hydraulic brakes as the company neared voluntary liquidation.

The Aero name was used as a design concept by many companies in the 1930's, not just AC, and is taken from 'aero-dynamic' or streamlined (yet some were far from that, being bulky cars). The name Aero was characterised by a roof line that then sloped down to the end of the car, no protrusion of boot lids/spare wheels and so on.  In 1934 Riley advertised their Kestrel model having an 'Aero-Line' design. Additionally, in the pre-war years there were many names used for body types, each having a distinct meaning. Examples being tourer, coupe, torpedo, sedanca, roadster and so on. Aero is yet another.

Ok. I understand. But...

There are such designations as AC 16HP Ace, AC 16HP Aceca and AC 16HP Aero.
In this context, what do they mean?

[administrator]

16/XX refers to the engine that was fitted.

The AC Six was a "16 HP" engine according to the RAC taxation class:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower

16 HP had no relevance to the engine's real output, so AC and many other manufacturers used designations such as 16/66, 16/70, 16/80 etc. 
16/66 = 16HP taxation class, 66 HP output at the flywheel (these numbers were sometimes optimistic!)
16/80 = 16HP taxation class, 80 HP output at the flywheel

The Anzani/Cubitt/AC 4 cylinder was in the 12 HP taxation class.

[Old Crock]

To expand on the above:

The UK used an RAC rating formula (formula below) for taxation purposes (known as taxable horsepower). It was originally calculated in inches. Here's the formula using the AC 2-litre engine; take the bore size (65mm, thus 2.56''), this then squared (2.56 x 2.56 = 6.55), then multiplied by the number of cylinders (6.55 x 6 = 39.3), then divided by 2.5 (39.3 ÷ 2.5 = 15.7 taxable HP).

UK taxable HP =  D²N/2.5    where D = bore, N = number of cylinders.

To take one model of AC the 16/56 was thus 16 taxable horsepower (to nearest round number) with 56 horsepower produced by the engine. As the stroke was not in the calculation it was natural to design long-stroke engines thus high power output with low tax. So, the AC engine had a 100 mm stroke.

This was the UK system, but there were different formulae in other European countries. In Germany, for example, there was PS based on overall engine displacement. The Mercedes 'S' of the late 1920's was the 26/120/180 model, the last two figures showing without/with the blower (supercharger) engaged.

[Andrey1976b]

Thank you. This is all I know.

I'm wondering how AC 16HP Ace differs from AC 16HP Aceca

[Old Crock]

The taxable horsepower system was discontinued by the British government on 1 January 1947. To refer to an AC Aceca or Ace as 16HP is thus prewar. The two car models are from different decades - 1920's and 1930's - and used the same basic 2-litre engine, rated at 16HP (though improved over those years). As I wrote above, in earlier posting, 'the Aceca was first introduced in 1925 and the Ace first introduced in 1933'.  

[Old Crock]

Ace, a 16/60, with an Aero body (from 1935 Sales Brochure):

[ACOCArch]

I have a question. What is the difference between Ace, Aceca, Magma, Aero versions?

The model name 'Aceca' is perhaps the most mysterious of any adopted by AC Cars and their associated companies. The word, a palindrome, is not listed in any known dictionary and was first used by AC some seven years before the 'Ace' model name.

Although 'Aceca' was used by AC as a model designation from 1925 the earliest known use of the name was in May 1924 when AC Cars Ltd and SF Edge were granted Patent 216283 concerning aspects of car body design.

The innovation in the patent was for the gap between a sloping windscreen and a vertically-sliding door window to be filled by a fixed triangular panel. The triangular section could be attached to either the door or the windscreen frame. The closest thing in more modern cars are the front quarterlights.

Throughout the period 1925 to 1930 all ACs featuring this 'entirely new departure of coach building' were given the model name 'Aceca', or described as being fitted with the 'Aceca Coupé' body.

The fixed triangular panel is clearly visible in the car for sale which, on the basis outlined above, would be designated an AC Aceca.

Incidentally, the Royal AC 16-66hp which, in 1926, driven by the Hon Victor Bruce and Mr Bill Brunell, became the first British car to win the Monte-Carlo Rally, had an Aceca Coupé body.

To this day, debate continues about the pronunciation!  A sign above the AC Stand at the 1954 London Motor Show declared the correct articulation to be 'A Seeker'!

A full account of the model name Aceca, including the patent, was published in the April 2015 edition of ACtion.