Cobra Engine #s

[aex125]

Over the years I have seen leaf spring Cobra Engine #s that have always been 4 numerals which I assumed was a engine assembly # of some kind. Recently I saw that CSX2337 has an engine # of PA4041. Does anyone know what the PA designation stands for? Production Assembly, Pure Adrenalin, Post Adolesence,Plenty (of) Acceleration or?
   TIA
   Jay Peterson

[Emmanueld]

Jay, most 60's Cobra don't have the original engine, The factory did not keep good records, Shelby kept none and some Ford motors don't have numbers! (Like the 428) for example. Racing Cobras have gone through many motors. Also, it is easy to stamp numbers on any engine. I would not worry about it!
   
   EMMANUEL

[jbottini]

Mark IV, do you have your decoder ring available? Amazing the information Emmanueld has access to. Jim

[aex125]

Emmanuel,
   I wasn't really worried about it per se, more curious about what it meant. (Yea, I know, I probably have too much time on my hands). Anyway, A while after posting this originally, I tracked down the owner of CSX2337 and ask him if knew what the PA meant. He did not, but told me that it was a number that was stamped on his engine and he was the original owner. Oh well, another mystery that may never be solved, although I am not sure it needs to be either.
   Jay

[Emmanueld]

Jay, I have a book on Ford Engines which is pretty detailed, I will look and see if I can find anything! Ford was never very good with engine numbers. Emmanuel

[ak1234]

My experience has been ... any cars shipped to the USA needed an engine serial # to match the car ..it didnt have to be the cars serial #.  I have 3 fine examples of that all three of my cars shipped from Italy, and Uk and have engine ID numbers stamped in .. NOT CASTING #'s .  My US cars have NONE only casting #'s.  Ford never stamped numbers into blocks on US cars.

[aex125]

ak1234,
   I'm not sure if the statement "Ford never stamped numbers into blocks on US cars" is true. I believe all Ford hi-po 289s in 65-66 Mustangs were stamped with the VIN of the car they were put into. I know that all of the Shelby 65-66 GT-350s received this treatment, but maybe theye were done at the Shelby plant and not at the Ford plant. If that is the case, maybe the PA# was something unique to the Shelby operation?
   Jay

[Mark IV]

Until 1970 only selected Fords had VINs on the engine...and even then many that were supposed to have them, did not!
   Rick

[ak1234]

Your right that was too general of a statement .. sorry .. but from my experience .. the only Ford blocks that I owned that had numbers stamped in them were and are :  My MKIV, my 2 Pantera's and one BOSS 302 aftermarket block.  The rest of the cars I owned I rebuilt the motors and no stampings.
   
   Ron

[Emmanueld]

Could you post a photo of the block? so we can see the location and the type of engraving!
   
   Emmanuel

[A-Snake]

I know this is nearly a one year old thread. I just ran across it and thought I would add some information.
   The subject of leaf spring Cobra engine numbers is somewhat confusing especially the 260 engines and the last 60 some cars. The 289 cars, with exceptions noted later, have engine numbers stamped by Ford. They were production HIPO engines from what was being used in Fairlanes at the time. They are in an alphanumeric format and are stamped on a 'boss' on the left rear side (drivers side). Four digits with a prefix of PA and PB mostly, some other examples exist. The meaning of the prefix remains a mystery, at least to me. The four digits are a sequential serial number
   
   There is also an assembly date stamped on a 'boss' on the left front side of the engine. It appears that groups of engines were assembled on the same date. Bob Mannel, author of "Mustang & Ford Small Block V8" has been tracking these dates.
   
   Shelby purchased the HIPO 289 assembled from Ford. After SA added/changed a few things on the engine, it was installed in the car. SA would stamp the engine number in the space provided on the footbox tag. This is the tag that AC stamped the chassis number. Engines were not selected in order. The engine number does appear on the invoice from SA to the selling dealer or customer. While a number of cars have lost there original engine, many do retain their original engine.
   
   The 289's mentioned above were '5 bolt' engines. Production ended on Fairlanes in the late spring of 1964 as Ford was gearing up for '65 production and the new '6 bolt 289. Shelby, by August of '64 was lacking engines. For whatever reason, it appears that approximently 30 '5 bolt' engines were assembled from parts at SA. These were stamped with a 'new' series of six digit numbers 000001 etc. (No prefix) So very late 289 cars in the higher CSX25xx area could have single digit engine numbers 00000x.
    There were also 30 '6 bolt' engines used with automatic transmissions that used the same series of engine numbers.
   
   I'll stop at this "muddy" point.[:o)]

[rr64]

quote:Originally posted by aex125
   
Over the years I have seen leaf spring Cobra Engine #s that have always been 4 numerals which I assumed was a engine assembly # of some kind. Recently I saw that CSX2337 has an engine # of PA4041. Does anyone know what the PA designation stands for? Production Assembly, Pure Adrenalin, Post Adolesence,Plenty (of) Acceleration or?
   TIA
   Jay Peterson
   

   
   Jay,
   Regarding the serial numbering of 260/289 engines in Cobras (leaf spring chassis) finished at Shelby American in California. I can't tell you what the "PA" means in your inquiry. I have tried to find a reference or knowledgeable person for many years.  I will share my other findings and observations.  It is getting harder and harder to find original details as people forget and cars continue to get modified.
   Dan Case
   CSX2310
   CSX2551
   
   
   If any of the HP260 engines other than the first two (which had hand painted serial numbers on their valve covers in early pictures) Shelby American installed received serial numbers I have never heard of it. Those early engines are strange combinations of production Ford parts and experimental (SK- and XE- Ford engineering number prefixes for rods, cylinder heads, distributors, and intake manifolds) development pieces.
   
   The information I have accumulated so far is more than I want to type out here (casting numbers, date codes, model numbers, different versions of parts 1963-65 as Ford designs evolved as seen during examinations or reported by Cobra owners) but for HP289s as installed in Cobras new there are three types of HP289 engines I have documented, examined, owned, or had owners share information on.
   
   1) Most HP289 powered cars received HP289 engines taken out of the stock of Fairlane production engines.  These were standardized assemblies.  Shelby American added the Cobra specific details.  (exhaust system, oil and water temperature sensors, charging system, throttle linkage ancillaries, in at least 1964-65 production modifying the fuel pump  <rotate the valve body forward>  modifying the fuel pump to carburetor metal tube line installing the Eelco® brand elbow installing a jumper hose and Murray® hose clamps) These were all five bolt bell housing engines. There were some Fairlane model year or design revisions of individual parts differences between the 1963 and 1964 model years but each production HP289 engine block (not the engine assembly) received a sequential number in the alpha numeric AAXXXX form.  Mr. Bob Mannel has a registry he maintains of these block serial numbers for Fairlanes. A few of us Cobra owners have supplied him with our engine block numbers.  For example on my black car the complete block number is PA4537.  Mr. Mannel has excellent Ford documentation and published an excellent book on the 260/289/302 engines. He is not sure what the alpha characters (PA on my engine) mean. 'PA' and 'PB' are common in Cobras but there are other combinations.  The numeric characters are the sequential serial number of the engine block (4537 on my block).  On the engines themselves all the alpha characters I have seen have been stamped on the front left tooling boss and all the sequential serial numbers on the left rear tooling boss. The sequential engine number was also usually hand painted on the rear of the block in white.  Shelby American adopted the engine block serial number as the engine serial number. I have only seen a few copies of invoices from Shelby American to the selling dealer but so far all the street cars had complete engine block numbers listed on that document. My car's invoice does.  When the cars started getting supplementary identification plates riveted  to the right side foot box Shelby's shop included the 'engine number' in the field provided on the tag. Most cars' tags that I have seen to date received the full number as shown on the invoice but it is not uncommon just to find the four numeric digits. (A Cobra  that a friend owns now was originally titled and registered by the car's complete 'engine number' and not the CSXxxxx chassis number when sold new. )
   
   2) Cars finished after approximately August  25, 1964 received Shelby American assigned engine numbers. I am still gathering information here but as Cobras are some of the most modified cars of all time, finding cars with completely intact original engines is being difficult.  Based on what Mr. Mannel has told me about Fairlane engine production that operation ended for the 1964 model year as summer 1964 started and by around July 1964 the new for the 1965 model year six bolt engines were being built. Based on what little has been found in print and what I have found through my inquiries roughly sixty Cobras still required engine installation when the supply of production five bolt 1964 Fairlane HP289s ended. Roughly half of these cars received five bolt engines and manual transmissions and the balance received new six bolt engines and automatic transmissions.  These engines did not come from Ford with any type serial numbers stamped into them it seems. These engines got serial numbers in the form of "000XX" stamped on or just above the left rear tooling boss on the block. The lowest number I that I currently know what chassis it was fit into is 00004 and the highest is 00060.  These numbers appeared on invoices to dealers and foot box tags. I have a car with this type numbering myself. (Researching this car started my investigation.)
   
   
   a) The post 1964 Fairlane production five bolt engines Cobras received don't seem to be normal 1964 or 1965 engines. The engines examined so far contain mixtures of 1964 and 1965 specification parts. The engines that have been checked contain blocks that were both cast during the 1964 Fairlane production time frame but not finished then; both were machined August 25, 1964.  The lone intact engine found so far (Shelby engine number 00010) with its Ford identification tag still in place has information on the tag that  indicates that the engine was a 1964 Fairlane HP289 for a manual transmission assembled in August 1964 (which was during Ford 1965 model year production).
   
   1964 specification components identified so far
   engine block (five bolt)
   block plate (five bolt)
   bell housing (five bolt)
   cylinder heads (rare C4OE versions cast in March 1964)
   harmonic balancer
   fan belt pulley on crankshaft
   fan belt pulley on water pump
   fuel pump
   
   1965 specification components identified so far
   timing cover
   oil pan (location of drain moved for 1965 and later models)
   ignition distributor
   carburetor (manual choke model instead of previous automatic choke)
   intake manifold
   
   b) The six bolt engines used in automatic transmission cars are believed to have been a Mustang configuration.  (Finding one intact with its engine assembly line tag would tell us for sure.)  The only Cobra that I am personally acquainted with that still has its six bolt engine original drive train was hot rodded (aftermarket induction, headers, and lots of small details) in the usual manner so it is impossible to tell exactly how it left Shelby American. Its engine was assembled August 28, 1964.

[rr64]

If you have an engine you question I might be able to help you find answers.
   
   Dan

[aex125]

A-Snake and Dan,
   Wow, much information to digest here.I'll definitely have some questions, but need to re-read a few times to understand what I do not understand.[;)]
   Jay

[rr64]

Jay,
   There is very much more but most of it would bore most readers I am afraid. Mr. Mannel's book is a must have for restorers of any Ford 260/289/302(non-Boss) powered car 1962-69. Even though he only briefly touches on Cobras and Cobra engine accessories he covers Fairlanes extremely well and all but very early and very late street car engines started off as Fairlane production engines. I have started a listing registry of the "000XX" Shelby numbered engines since Mr. Mannel does not tract them. I have started a database of fuel pumps used on Cobras in the CSX22XX through CSX24XX range before the Shelby numbered engines were put to use. I also have started a database of model and serial numbers for Shelby/Ford used/sold 48 IDM1, 48 IDA, and 48 IDA-1 Webers and systems designs. I am trying to document whatever I can before a point comes the history is lost to fading memories and discarded documentation.
   
   Dan