2-4-6 at Auction

[Jam2]

The forthcoming Bonhams auction has a 2-4-6 from 1937, because of its non standard running gear its estimate looks low.
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24874/preview_lot/5144373/
At the same auction there is a Vintage AC, an early Ace and a ME 3000.

[administrator]

These are the cars of the late John Davison, our former Hon Sec.

[GSouthee]

What a shame some of these were not offered for sale on the Forum or through Action. Would have saved a good deal by selling direct rather than commissions.

Hey ho, a ready built, hotrod would be nice with my Ol Girl.

Now how tall is that 2-4-6 and will it fit under my garage doors as both garages are up and overs.

[GSouthee]

Having done a quick check or two, I note according to the DVLA it is still registered as a 2056cc engine, clearly this has never been changed with the DVLA and is currently illegally registered, it is a real p[ain to retrospectively change a vehicle engine size now days, you need a VAT receipt for the engine and quite probably a check by an engineer to see if installed safely. Then of course there will be the insurance.

Why oh why such an esteemed member did not inform the DVLA of this I cannot understand.

Maybe Bonhams should be informed of this.

[GSouthee]

Having done a bit more digging into the vehicle mods, it seems that it may border on being that its VHI could be removed and in fact lose its original registration and gain a Q plate.

Why you may say, well the DVLA use a 8 out of 14 points system for modified vehicles, ie you must have a minimum of 8 points to retain its VHI and reg no. Thes are made up as follows:

5 for original chassis/monocoque in modified form.
2 for suspension both ends original
2 for axles both ends original
2 for original transmission
2 for original steering
1 for original engine.

Now at present it has 4 points for original axles and suspension and possibly 5 for the chassis unless it has had any sections removed/modified to take the engine and gearbox, it may just scrape by if the mods are additions to the structure such as engine/gearbox mounts and the original have been retained on the chassis thereby allowing the additions to be removed. if not game over it will not have 8 points and therefore fails to meet the standard for the DVLA.

I will try to ascertain what other mods have been done to this car as I am very interested in it. It will most definitely require and engineers report re the engine installation, hopefully there will be provenance for the Jaguar engine gearbox which will help with getting it legally registered with the DVLA, otherwise it may mean and engine swap or a huge loss in value.

I will be contacting Bonhams to find out as much as I can, and see if I can view the car to check its condition in these areas.

G

[BE774]

The original engine and gearbox could be rebuilt and refitted, thereby restoring it to its original specification. The estimate would appear to take this work into account. It is extremely rare, I have only seen one in 35 years attending club events.

If I didn't have a project already, I could be sorely tempted although a thorough examination would be needed before bidding.

[GSouthee]

I have been in contact with Bonhams who kindly supplied me with some of the history file. It seems that the engine change was carried out in approx. 1982 to 84. There have been some modifications to the chassis. It is questionable as to how much and if these are additions rather alterations, as if the latter it would make the car fail the 8 points test and therefore if it was to be used as is would make it illegally registered. However, it will have to wait to viewing to confirm this. If there are alterations I for one would inform the DVLA of this.

It also makes me wonder what was in the mind of the original owner 'our honorary secretary' when he did not correctly register this and why it was used for some 35 years as is. I thought all the cowboys were driving hot hatches and Japanese street racers etc etc.

Still, f it is possible to keep this registered as a VHI and can be correctly registered with the DVLA then I may have a go at it. I will need to speak to the DVLA to see what is required and to research this with some of my Hotrod colleagues who are more up to date with current requirements. Its been a while since I have done any major rodding work.

Gary

[BE774]

Well, as has been said, Gary, it was his money and his choice...

[GSouthee]

Well, as has been said, Gary, it was his money and his choice...

Graham

Not sure it has been said!

If your reference is to the matter of the car being modified, I have absolutely not problem with that, in fact I would be one of the first to congratulate him on the choice of engine etc etc. I have myself modded/rodded many a car myself and will continue to do so. Legally!

My point is that of not correctly registering and de facto correctly insuring it, taxing it and on and on.

I wonder if your view would be the same if a 18/20 year old had been involved in an accident with a member of your family or friends in such a modified car? Oh well it was his choice! I dont think so!!

Mod vehicles by all means, but ensure the legal side of things are also carried out.

I truly hope this car will remain registrable as a VHI, but if all fails it can have a 'Q'plate. The value will drop out and as I said 'Caveat Emptor', DYOR (do your own research).

Gary

[BE774]

Gary,

I am not too sure what effect the current changes would have upon the vehicle. Yes, a change of engine should have been notified to the authorities, but that is not that unusual. If it hadn't been reported to the owner's insurance company that would have been a totally different matter but I don't know if that is the case. As for the steering, it only affects things if the type or method of steering has been changed.

The only other consideration I can see is that the vehicle would have to be MOT'd every year rather than be exempt. Not a bad thing, in my opinion, as I know people who use this exemption as an excuse to avoid spending money on their brakes, tyres etc. Not in our club, thankfully.

Whether or not there will restrictions imposed on the use of VHIs in the future is something that might have to be fought.

Good luck if you decide to bid, it would make a great car if it were restored to original.

Graham.

[GSouthee]

Graham

I must correct your assumption re the steering, I have been doing hotrods/modified vehicles for the last 40 years and can be certain that since 1988 when the points system came in has and will continue to be a failure, it must be the 'original', not a hybrid as this is. However, it wound be fairly simple to correct as I can see no reason that original column would have fouled on anything, but closer examination will confirm.

I think if insured correctly it would have been picked up when they checked against the DVLA database. Further, they most certainly would have wiggled out of it when it came to light.

As to how it got through the MOT's in its time is another question. I do agree with you re the MOT status, and in fact I  put my cars through MOT's even if exempt.

If I am happy that with a little work it can retain it status and be correctly registered with to much work/cost and I am successful in bidding, then it will not be returned to original, I will retain the jag engine etc and sell on the AC engine. After whilst when built up they can look pleasant they are not particularly powerful or cheap to rebuild.

I hope that if I am unsuccesful the winner has thoroughly checked it over.

Gary

[BE774]

Gary,

As regards the steering, I can only quote from the government website describing the 2018 rules

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

so I make the assumption that if it is the same type of steering gear, then it would pass the that criterion.

"Axles and running gear – alteration of the type and or method of suspension or steering constitutes a substantial change;"

I note that you previously said "Now at present it has 4 points for original axles and suspension..." so do not understand the problem

I also don't believe that if it is not declared as a VHI it has to have a Q plate. The VHI is a voluntary declaration to gain the dubious benefit of not requiring an MOT test, with the possible outcome that restrictions on their use may be imposed at some later date. If the vehicle currently has a V5 and was being used by the former keeper then surely there is no need for it to be examined for originality?

We obviously differ in the way we view this car, and that is fine because there is room in our club for all types of folk.

I see this as an opportunity to restore a very rare car to its original form, for the cost of an engine rebuild. If more power is wanted, then it would cost no more to extract 100bhp during the rebuild as it is likely to need pistons, liners, crank, rods and cam etc. anyway. So approx. 50% more power for free, with a lighter engine than the Jaguar unit.

Good luck with your bidding. Graham.

[GSouthee]

Graham

This clearly a case of a little information being dangerous in the wrong hands. What you have looked at is the NEW criteria for the new wave of potential VHI ie those registered after 1960 as those before that date already have VHI. Also this only relates to substantial changes for the requirement to be tested not registered correctly. The 8 point rule is used for determining the correct registration of a vehicle, yes the car so far has a guaranteed 4 points and if the chassis is original with only additions to it (that can be removed) it will attain a further 5 points making it correct. If however chassis mods have been done that remove parts and alter it layout, then it may well fail that part thereby only having 4 out of 8 points. It is quite simple really. I note in another post I think in the cobra section there is a case where the DVLA withdrew the registration status due to the vehicle not conforming to regs.

To assume is to make an ass out of you and me, never assume. Assumptions can be very expensive.

Further, I am not sure that the 1937 could be made to achieve 100 bhp! with out a lot of very expensive work, ie crankshaft mods to shells, possibly a new water jacket, certainly new liners/pistons, larger carbs, better flowing exhaust, etc etc. When I considered my engine for a rebuild I was quoted £18-20k to get that to that level of performance. Let alone how much it would cost to rebuild the gearbox. That is why I opted for the Triumph straight 6 with a now 140bhp and an overdrive gearbox, full rebuild cost of engine with me doing quite a bit of the work £3k ish.

I think it best to leave the matter of registration now. But I implore any potential bidder from the club myself included to thoroughly check the vehicle over.

It is good to have debate but let it be informed debate.

[rsk289]

Having done a quick check or two, I note according to the DVLA it is still registered as a 2056cc engine, clearly this has never been changed with the DVLA and is currently illegally registered, it is a real p[ain to retrospectively change a vehicle engine size now days, you need a VAT receipt for the engine and quite probably a check by an engineer to see if installed safely. Then of course there will be the insurance.

Why oh why such an esteemed member did not inform the DVLA of this I cannot understand.

Maybe Bonhams should be informed of this.

I'm not sure it's always a big deal nowadays, despite all the stories.  Two months ago, I changed both capacity and engine number for my '68 Cooper S, just by using the 'changes' section of the V5 - it came back 5 days later, all done, no letters required, no questions asked.  Similarly, last month my recently-purchased Series IIA Land Rover's last ever MOT came around, and my tester couldn't find it on the system - it turns out that in 1983 when the V5 was computerised the last digit of the chassis number was mistakenly entered as an 'L', when it is in fact a 'C' on the chassis plate.  All testers since '83 had simply used the old MOT cert or V5 to enter on the computer so this error was perpetuated for over thirty years.  I took a photo of the chassis plate, another photo showing the Landie including the number plate, and simply entered it in the 'changes' section with brief covering letter.  5 days later I received a new V5 with the correct chassis number, no questions, inspections or hassle.  I think there are still a few humans left in Swansea...

[Jam2]

I see it sold for £39,675-  inc. premium.
Hopefully the new owner will put it back to an AC engine.