UPG428F, Factory press car

[runt]

Chuck,I remember that 'T' shifter on a '70 Muzzie I owned in '79;and can imagine how awkward it might be on a rhd,though of course parking is the only time you'd touch it,I assume with 480 ft/lbs you leave it in 'D' all day long?
   I've noticed through the years that the motor was rated at '345 bhp gross',this seems a bit low bearing in mind the 10.5 :1 c/r..?
   Were the iron heads of much smaller porting than today's alluminum items? As Emmanuel's car shows, this engine has masses of potential,I just would have guessed nearer 400 horse as installed in the AC 428.
   As a VERY enhusiastic non-owner, a big thank you from me to everyone on these forums, a fount of knowledge and great to know that many others love these cars!
   
   Paul/runt.[:)]

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck,I remember that 'T' shifter on a '70 Muzzie I owned in '79;and can imagine how awkward it might be on a rhd,though of course parking is the only time you'd touch it,I assume with 480 ft/lbs you leave it in 'D' all day long?

   
   Well...  I would imagine that it would be pretty awkward if the shifter and spring were new and stiff.  Fortunately, the one on CF 7 is pretty well worked in and it possible that someone at some time took it apart because it doesn't take a great deal of effort to push it in with one's pinky.
   
   As for times when one would use it...  In my experience about the only times one would want to use it would be if:
   
   a] one wanted to control shifting points from start,
   b] one wanted to force an immediate gear kick-down for acceleration whilst underway.
   c] one wanted to use the engine for "Compression braking".
   
   There would probably be a bit of an advantage of taking matters in to one's own hand on those.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
I've noticed through the years that the motor was rated at '345 bhp gross',this seems a bit low bearing in mind the 10.5 :1 c/r..?

   
   Hmmm...  with the 428 torque is really this plant's strong suit, not brute horsepower.  If I remember correctly, the 428 has a longer stroke/smaller bore than the 427 so it's not as "free-revvin'" of an engine, which probably also explains the AC 428's comparatively modest top end: lower Redline and only three gears.  Considering how much more slippery and "swoopy" the Frua (especially the coupe) compared to a Cobra 427 one would think that a Frua Coupe would have it all over the "MGB on Steroids" shape of the Cobras.  But the 428/C6 combo doesn't have the long legs to go along with the slippery shape.
   
   But we'll always have better fuel economy!
   
   Among other things the real "trick" part of the 427, at least in my opinion, are the cross-bolted mains.  They really add to the sturdiness of the bottom end of the 427's block.  A far superior arrangement to "traditional" 4-bolt mains.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Were the iron heads of much smaller porting than today's alluminum items? As Emmanuel's car shows, this engine has masses of potential,I just would have guessed nearer 400 horse as installed in the AC 428.

   
   Well, truth be told, since we've had the car about the only thing we've done to it was to change the main bearing's and put in a radio.  So I really wouldn't know first hand how the heads/headers would compare with modern parts.  However, at one time my Dad had a 427 Tunnel Port engine and the difference between it's ports [both intake and exhaust] was simply mind-blowing.
   
   To explain the difference [as best as I can remember 20 years later] one could take an Eisenhower Silver Dollar [about the same size as the older pattern 10p or 50p coin] and bridge over the ports on a standard medium-riser/side oiler 427.  With the Tunnel-port there was a solid 5-10mm all around the edge of the coin...  [again that's as best as I can remember]
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
As a VERY enhusiastic non-owner, a big thank you from me to everyone on these forums, a fount of knowledge and great to know that many others love these cars!

   
   Well, I was pretty enthusiastic about the AC since I found out about it, still am!  My father though was the real gearhead in the family and he knew a lot more about the nuts and bolts of the why's and wherefores on the mechanics.  He was an old school hot-rodder.
   
   As I mentioned previously, my collecting focus is on chronographs.
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/cm3articles.html
   
   When that is the topic, I get to be a little more useful as a resource personally.
   
   For example...  Speaking of 1967's...  Here are a couple of other 1967's...
   
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/competitors/autavia_v_speedmaster/autavia_v72_v_speedy_c321.html
   
   But I'll try to share when and where I can around here.  I too am exceedingly happy to have fount a place to talk and learn more about the AC Frua's...  Back in the 1970's we had thought that [at that time] there may have been as few as 6 or so AC 428's in the Weastern hemisphere.  It nice to know a few others have made it over here.  It'd be great to have a reunion some day.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Paul/runt.[:)]
   

   
   It has been a pleasure conversing Paul...
   
   --  Chuck

[Classicus]

UPG 428 F. Autocar Road Test 4th July 1968
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

[runt]

Stunning, Chuck that Omega is perfection.
   I have read a couple of tests on Cobra 427 with Holman & Moody tunnel port heads, output from those engines must have been in the region of 500 horse, didn't realise porting was THAT big!
   
   Classicus, that Autocar test is another gem, CF 7 was quite a busy car at that time!"Under way the AC 428 responds to the throttle like no other car we know"..!Great stuff!
   
   Paul.[:)]

[Rheinubung]

Hello Chuck:
   
   It was an amazing deja vu experience to read your detailed report of your history with CF 7; thank you very much.
   
   Yes I am the very same guy from Seattle who visited your home in St. Charles... the very same guy trying to buy CF 7 from Mr. Whitlam in London. In fact, when I flew over there, he was kind enough to meet me, drive me out to AC in Thames Ditton, then buy me an excellent tandoori chicken.
   
   I am listed in the phone book for Bothell, WA (suburb of Seattle) as Michael S. Reed on 53rd Ave. S.E. My e-mail is Rheinubung@msn.com. I hope you'll contact me and we can have an interesting conversation.
   
   Best Regards,
   Mike

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Stunning, Chuck that Omega is perfection.

   
   Hiya again Paul,
   
   Actually my 1967 "Pre-Moon" Speedy is a bit on the rough side compared with my others, even my older ones...
   
   My c.1959 CK2915-3:
   
   
   And my 105.003-65 are in better shape:
   
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
I have read a couple of tests on Cobra 427 with Holman & Moody tunnel port heads, output from those engines must have been in the region of 500 horse, didn't realise porting was THAT big!

   
   Well, I can't remember if the claimed figure was 515 or 575 Horses to be honest, and that may have been gross not net.  But I doubt many many had Power Steering or Air Conditioning installed!
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Classicus, that Autocar test is another gem, CF 7 was quite a busy car at that time!"Under way the AC 428 responds to the throttle like no other car we know"..!Great stuff!
   
   Paul.[:)]
   

   
   They sure know/knew how to smith words!
   
   --  Chuck

[runt]

Chuck,these are restored by yourself, or in original condition? Whatever,they are remarkable, if you'll pardon my lowering the tone of the conversation, what kind of value could these command now?
   Back to CF 7,this has been inspiring, told my wife:"I'm speaking to the owner of a car I've loved since I was thirteen, in 1968!" Also, great that Mike and yourself are in contact, power to the internet!
   The evolution of the Ford 'Total Performance' lineage though the 1960's V-8s has always inspired me, like most enthusiasts I admire all kinds of Yankee V-8s but the Ford small block for example sounds SO different to a Chev; what with the firing order etc., if we listen to the chase in 'Bullitt', McQueen's 390GT Muzzie sounds nothing like the Charger R/T noise,apparently the soundtrack we hear there is NOT the 390 FE, but a GT40 soundtrack overlaid..! (Small or Big Block, I know not.)
   The Supercharged 312 in your father's T-Bird is clearly the start of the Y Block performance options, an inspired period for Ford!
   I'm wondering if anyone on here has one of these rumoured early Fruas with a 427 fitted from new..?
   
   Paul.[:)]
   
   Paul.

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck,these are restored by yourself, or in original condition?

   
   As far as I've been able to tell both examples are in original condition as shipped from the factory in Bienne Switzerland back in the day.  I'm sure both watches have been serviced through the years and may well have certain "wear" parts replaced much as any of us would replace a brake pad, wiper blades or tires.
   
   I have had the 105.003 overhauled by a trusted watchmaker as it had "Chrono Hour Creep" where the Chronograph Hour hand will creep forward even when the chronograph is stopped.  One can actually see in the picture I had included in my previous post that the hour register isn't zeroed.  That's CHC...  It's been fixed since I took that snap.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Whatever,they are remarkable,

   
   Thank you.  I feel the same way about them.  The 105.003 [the second one] in particular is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the "Speedmaster experience".  This is the same model that Ed White wore when he did his Space walk on Gemini 4 and later survived the Apollo 1 fire.
   
   
   
   
   The reason I prefer the 105.003 is that it's very plain compared with the models before and after it.  It's the cleanest and plainest Speedmaster ever made and it has a quiet elegance about it.  Like a Movado Museum watch, it's just plainly elegant.  It doesn't need to shout about what it is.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
if you'll pardon my lowering the tone of the conversation, what kind of value could these command now?

   
   Well, It's really hard to say with the CK2915-3 [the one with the silver colored main hands] as they are pretty uncommon and don't show up on eBay especially often.  The "Dash-1" and "Dash-2"'s are the real pricey one's which have "Broad Arrow" hands.
   
   
   
   Now that watch [which is a CK2915-1 or what many of us collector's will call a "Dash One" is probably worth anywhere from, Hmmm...  I'd say about $12,000 up to about....  [fumbling for the auction final results...]  Well, they had two Dash-Two's sell at the big Omegamania Auction back in April:  106,200 Swiss Francs and 94,400 Swiss Francs respectively...  That's 64,231.28 Euro and 57,094.47 Euro respectively.
   
   However the highest price I've seen for a Dash One or Dash Two on eBay was $26,000 or so...  I archived the auction for future reference:
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/26100_CK2915_ebay.pdf
   
   But that was several years ago.
   
   My Dash Three example, I paid $3,300 for it back in the spring of 2003 and it's probably worth something closer to what the CK2998's went for at Omega mania which was...  30,680 Swiss Francs and 21,240 Swiss Francs  or 18,555.70 Euro and 12,846.26 Euro respectively.  The highest price I've seen on eBay for a CK2998 was about $14,000 fairly recently:
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/auctions/14100USD_CK2998_230024151138/eBay_CK2998_1959_OMEGA_SPEEDMASTER_230024151138.pdf
   
   But that one had EVERY SPECK of original boxes and papers that a collector could ever dream of.  I only have the watch, so mine wouldn't be worth quite that much, even though my dial is in better "non-turned" condition.  "Turned means the dial has changed from it's original black to a Chocolate Brown...
   
   
   
   But it has an original bracelet.  Mine is in much better shape though...  So maybe it wouldn't be too far behind.
   
   As for the 105.003's.  They are quite a bit more common...  They can probably still be had in the $3,500 to $6,000 range without too much scrounging.  But the Omegamania auction was like Tsunami in the watch collecting world and we're still trying to make sense of where values will settle out to be in the future.
   
   I guess this goes to show that there certainly is a lot to the Speedmaster topic.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Back to CF 7,this has been inspiring, told my wife:"I'm speaking to the owner of a car I've loved since I was thirteen, in 1968!" Also, great that Mike and yourself are in contact, power to the internet!

   
   The internet is an amazing thing.  I have people I consider friends in about 20-25 countries and every week I get unsolicited emails from at least a dozen countries seeking my assistance or advice on chronograph topics.  It amazes me that a Department of Defense program meant to ensure communications after a nuclear war has probably done more to bring the world closer together than all of the Peace marches combined!
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
The evolution of the Ford 'Total Performance' lineage though the 1960's V-8s has always inspired me, like most enthusiasts I admire all kinds of Yankee V-8s but the Ford small block for example sounds SO different to a Chev; what with the firing order etc., if we listen to the chase in 'Bullitt', McQueen's 390GT Muzzie sounds nothing like the Charger R/T noise,apparently the soundtrack we hear there is NOT the 390 FE, but a GT40 soundtrack overlaid..! (Small or Big Block, I know not.)

   
   Well of course, the 390 isn't a small block Ford.  It's a FE just like the 406, 427 and 428...  The 428 is really just a bored and stroked 390 for the most part.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
The Supercharged 312 in your father's T-Bird is clearly the start of the Y Block performance options, an inspired period for Ford!

   
   Actually, it probably was the pinacle of the Y-Block development.  I don't believe that Ford ever shipped a more powerful version of the Y-Block.  The Dual-Quad E-Bird's developed 275 and 285 HP [Manual/Auto] and the Supercharged version was rated at 300hp.  But I personally believe that to be conservative.  My dad certainly walked away from me in my 1969 Torino GT Convertable [390] during a driving Thunderstorm (him on Bias ply Wide-Whitewalls, me on brand new BF Goodrich T/A Radials.]...
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
I'm wondering if anyone on here has one of these rumoured early Fruas with a 427 fitted from new..?

   
   It's possible I suppose.  I suspect that CF1 was a 427 as the really early articles I've seen call the car the AC 427.  But I don't really know.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Paul.[:)]
   
   Paul.
   

   
   Again, it's been a pleasure chatting P!
   
   --  Chuck

[runt]

Chuck, I can see the 'understated'feel of the 105.003 appearance you're stressing, truly classic, and what an amazing story re Edward White's Speedmaster.
   For the T - Bird to outdrag a Torino 390 GT certainly is a powerful indication of Ford underrating the output of some of the performance engines, someone on the 'CobraClub' forum advised me that the 428  'Police Interceptor'rated at 345 horse,was reckoned at the time to produce a genuine unstressed 360 -370 which sounds more like it, but of course as you mentioned, TORQUE is the attraction with all these leviathans, my 396 Windsor made 460 ft/lbs on the dyno, goodness knows what kind of reading that tunnel port 427 gave..!
   
   Paul.[:)]

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck, I can see the 'understated'feel of the 105.003 appearance you're stressing, truly classic, and what an amazing story re Edward White's Speedmaster.

   
   Hi Paul,
   
   In my opinion, if one can only have one, that's the model to have.  Often we in the chronograph collecting community compare various brands and models to cars.  Most often, the Speedmaster is compared to the Porsche 911.  Mainly because the Speedmaster is celebrating it's 50th year of continous production this year and for the most part the main model which has become known as "the moonwatch" hasn't changed to a great extent in those fifty years.  The 911 has been in production for over 40 years and if one were to drive a 1964 or 1965 model and see a brand new 911 going the other way, they'd recognize one another.  Both designs have stood the test of time.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
For the T - Bird to outdrag a Torino 390 GT certainly is a powerful indication of Ford underrating the output of some of the performance engines,

   
   Well, in my defense, I was only 16 years old at the time, and I hadn't had a lot of experience on the road (even thought I had been running construction equipment since I was 10).  My Dad had been driving decades and probably had 60,000 miles behind the wheel of that car (I probably had a couple thousand behind the Torino's wheel).  The tires on my Torino were probably half again as wide as the Wide Whites on the Brown Bird, so the Bird wouldn't have had as much slicing through the puddles while my clod-hoppers would skip over the top like a rock on a pond.  Now if we were on some corners, maybe I would have been able to catch up some.  Still, the only other times I had someone walk away from me in that Torino were a pair of 455's...  A Olds Toronado on a sloppy road, and one of my lifelong friend's 1971 GTO Judge 455 with Ram Air IV heads.  I know I got beat other times too, on a straight track but not so handily.  I couldn't keep up with a Sunbeam Tiger on a curvey patch of road either, but I suppose that's not a big surprise either!
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
someone on the 'CobraClub' forum advised me that the 428  'Police Interceptor'rated at 345 horse,was reckoned at the time to produce a genuine unstressed 360 -370 which sounds more like it, but of course as you mentioned, TORQUE is the attraction with all these leviathans, my 396 Windsor made 460 ft/lbs on the dyno, goodness knows what kind of reading that tunnel port 427 gave..!

   
   Well, I can tell you that the Blown Bird was strong and would keep on getting stronger as the blower did it's thing.
   
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Paul.[:)]
   

   
   Cheers!
   
   Chuck

[Englishman]

Chuck,
   
   It seems a small world especially when I was scanning this thread. We used to live in St Charles, for five years, and when I acquired my 428 CF64 its history had it in Vancouver for many years.
   
   We now all live (428 included) north of Sydney on the Central Coast of NSW Australia.
   
   Peter

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by Englishman
   
Chuck,
   
   It seems a small world especially when I was scanning this thread. We used to live in St Charles, for five years, and when I acquired my 428 CF64 its history had it in Vancouver for many years.
   
   We now all live (428 included) north of Sydney on the Central Coast of NSW Australia.
   
   Peter
   

   
   Hello Peter,
   
   Pleased to have met your acquaintance...  It is indeed a small world.  Then again Mike from Seattle grew up in Elgin...  How's that for small world?  When did you live in "the Pride of the Fox"?  The town's pretty much the same, although it's grown quite a bit.  We now have two high schools and three middle schools, and I live within 5 miles of two Border's Books, and a Barnes and Noble Bookstore if you're familiar with those chains.  The bridges are still a chokepoint during morning and afternoon rush hours and when the High Schools have let out.
   
   While it's sad that an AC 428 escaped North America (especially for someone who would love to have a convertible, or Stick, or Left-Hand Drive) version someday, it's good to know CF64in good hands and perhaps gets a chance to make some fast runs.
   
   Cheers!
   
   Chuck

[Englishman]

Chuck,
   We lived in Corron Glen off Corron Road 1994 through 1999 and our daughter graduated from one of the High Schools there.
   I used to have a beer or two with Dave Corron at the Silverado in Wasco.
   CF 64 is a fastback that started its life in the UK how it got to Vancouver I have no idea but would dearly like to find out. I have its Canadian history and that is about it.
   
   Cheers
   Peter

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by Englishman
   
Chuck,
   We lived in Corron Glen off Corron Road 1994 through 1999 and our daughter graduated from one of the High Schools there.
   I used to have a beer or two with Dave Corron at the Silverado in Wasco.

   
   It is a small world indeed...  I went to High School with Ned Corron he was in the class that graduated a year behind my class.    I live closer to town on the north side but still east of Randall.
   
   It's still a great place to live although we have to endure the Bloomingdale Gold Corvette meet over at Pheasant Run for a long weekend every summer, with the attending mouse motor fumes and blue smoke...  X-p
   
   

quote:Originally posted by Englishman
   
CF 64 is a fastback that started its life in the UK how it got to Vancouver I have no idea but would dearly like to find out. I have its Canadian history and that is about it.
   
   Cheers
   Peter
   

   
   LHD or RHD?  Stick or Auto?  Inquiring minds want to know!
   
   Cheers!
   
   --  Chuck