39 PH : Evidence of a new chassis

[SJ351]

This one has long puzzled me. The original Thames Ditton factory bible has a number of new chassis recorded as being supplied to both Ace and Cobra cars as replacements following accident damage in period. But what of 39 PH I wonder, although I know that 13 COB, the ex Bell and Colvill car, has reportedly revealed a relevant chassis number during a restoration.

[Cobra Ned]

It would be interesting to know more about the original chassis stamping supposedly found on the Bell & Colvill car, as it has long been said that was a chassis out of nowhere. Yet it had to originate someplace, and unless there was a spare carnet for the 2131 VIN hanging around, there would be no reason to number it as it was, which lends credence to the thought that it uses the old 2131 unit.

[rstainer]

I believe the public-record ACOC register information (based on detailed examination of CS 2131 and the Bell & Colvill car) tells all that will be known, unless further as-yet-undiscovered historical records emerge. The known public-record facts are:
   
   CS 2131:
   

'Taken back to AC on the Shelby transporter with the CSX 2323 team car, also severely damaged, and dismantled'

   

'To speed up repair AC supplied a new unstamped LHD chassis and substructure, which was transported to Willment with the dismantled car'

   

'Willment reassembled 39PH around the new chassis (changed to RHD) and substructure, modifyimg it to current FIA specification with wider flares and cut-back doors'

   
   Bell & Colvill car (no car number originally, then numbered 'ITC1', then re-numbered 'CS 2131 A'):
   

'Constructors: Willment & Unknown Parties'

   

'In January 1966 Willment advertised a "Cobra Chassis. New body, 4.2 Ford V8. Rebuild not complete. As is £1,000."

   

'Its chassis, a pre-November 63 chassis (with some parts replaced), is thought to be the chassis discarded during the 64 repair of CS 2131'

   
   These facts and conclusions are supported by much non-public-record material available to interested parties (bona-fide potential purchasers and their agents, owners and their agents and historians).
   
   RS

[SJ351]

I am fully aware of the non-public facts around 13 COB and they are most interesting and revealing. It appears Martin may not have known what he really had. I seem to recall Emilio Garcia having had a hand in it too.
   
   For those of us that believe the chassis is 'the car', perhaps 13 COB has more history and race provenance than ever before accredited.
   
   Is 13 COB the real 39 PH? Registration numbers can be transferred. The original metal will always be just that : 'present from the beginning' (according to my dictionary).
   
   The puzzling thing is the lack of documentation of the 'new' 39 PH AC Cars supplied body-chassis unit in the Thames Ditton factory ledger or 'bible', especially considering the numerous other such entries.
   
   
   SJ

[nikbj68]

Erm.... hold yer horses there.
   What "'new' 39 PH AC Cars supplied body-chassis unit "
   There was NO suggestion that a body was supplied, ALL contemporary accounts stating that much of the body was retained(with the addition of the flared rear arches.)Many unique features would not have been replicated on a 'spare' body, especially one supplied at short notice!
   13 COB is NOT as you put it "the real 39 PH", any more than the Willment Coupé which bore the same chassis number and registration number for a time is, and regardless of whether the chassis was or wasn`t replaced, the 39PH that Jack Sears won the 'Black Flag' race and the subsequent 2 races in, is the 39PH we see today.
   
   As Robin has stated "These facts and conclusions are supported by much non-public-record material available to interested parties (bona-fide potential purchasers and their agents, owners and their agents and historians)." There is little left to discuss in open forum.

[AC Ace Bristol]

Nik and Robin.
   
   As Rumpole of the Old Bailey Put it " I rest my Case "..  ..[;)]
   
   very well put, by two reliable well informed authorities....[;)]
   
   Keith..

[rstainer]

Nik's 'hold your horses' (viewed in Chicago) is absolutely right. I'll add a few other points:
   
   Is the car the car? Or is the unitary body-shell/chassis the car?
   
   The ACOC registers use the continuous history principle: 'the car is the car'. A small number of other registers use the important component principle: usually 'the unitary body-shell/chassis is the car' but sometimes 'the original registration document/title is the car'. Different identifiers illustrate the two alternatives:
   

The continuous history principle identifier is the car number/VIN

The important component principle identifier is the component number.

   For an impartial lawyer's assessment of these alternatives see Martin Emmison's 'Dual-Identity Cars' Sports Car Market article.
   
   Adding 'registration number' as a permanent identifier (13 COB, 39PH etc) would be resisted by most registrars: registration number is an attribute of car number/VIN at a point in time but isn't an attribute of component number at all. A large number of Cobras have had more than one registration, 13 COB being THY 35 F for many years, but none have a necessary registration number/component number correlation.
   
   A register is not 'right' or 'wrong' in terms of the principles it employs: the requirement is only that the principles be stated and consistently applied.
   
   RS

[aaron]

"CS 2131:
   •'Taken back to AC on the Shelby transporter with the CSX 2323 team car, also severely damaged, and dismantled'
   
   •'To speed up repair AC supplied a new unstamped LHD chassis and substructure, which was transported to Willment with the dismantled car'
   
   •'Willment reassembled 39PH around the new chassis (changed to RHD) and substructure, modifyimg it to current FIA specification with wider flares and cut-back doors'
   
   Some interesting facts the sub structure would have had to have been changed to accommodate the cut back doors.
   
   "It would be interesting to know more about the original chassis stamping supposedly found on the Bell & Colvill car, as it has long been said that was a chassis out of nowhere. Yet it had to originate someplace, and unless there was a spare carnet for the 2131 VIN hanging around, there would be no reason to number it as it was, which lends credence to the thought that it uses the old 2131 unit."
   
   If this is the case, I wonder why it was never recorded ?  The Bell & Coleville car still wears two chassis tags "ITC1" & "CS2131A" today.
   
   Why change the chassis no from ITC1 to CS2131A at a later date ?
   
   So how do you register a car with the DVLA with two chassis numbers ? How do you register a car with a new chassis no unless the chassis has been changed ?

[rstainer]

Cars are registered with a Vehicle Identification Number, not a 'chassis number'. The numbers used to identify individual components have no necessary connection with the VIN, aka car number. You can change the number stamped on the chassis whenever you want, but you can't change the VIN. Likewise it doesn't matter what's on the chassis tag, though it is sometimes wise to make a temporary adjustment if the MOT tester knows neither the vehicle nor you. No early Cobras had chassis tags in any event.
   
   So the answers are:

Because the owner felt like a change

  You don't, you register a car with a VIN

You don't: chassis changes (like engine changes etc) are not recorded by the DVLA.

[aaron]

So were would you get a VIN No for a car ?  Is the chassis No not also the VIN No for Cobras ? As the chassis No was stamped on a lot of various parts on the car for identity purposes ?

[rstainer]

So where would you get a VIN No for a car?
   From its registration document (V5C, Carte Gris etc)
   
   Is the chassis No not also the VIN No for Cobras? As the chassis No was stamped on a lot of various parts on the car for identity purposes?
   The question is the wrong way round. I'll answer a different one: Is the VIN (car number) not stamped/engraved on various parts of the car? Yes, in some places in full (eg CSX2042) and in others in part (eg 2042) when the car is made. However, as parts are replaced these stamped numbers can change.
   
   For example, COB6034 has 6056 on its bonnet latch and both door hinges, no number on its chassis and an after-market chassis plate. Its VIN is still COB6034. There are many similar examples in the Register.
   
   Any further questions on VINs and what they connote can easily be researched from authoritative sources.

[SJ351]

I think we can safely say that originality is in the eye of the beholder when it comes to cars, rightly or wrongly. For me, the major part of the car is the chassis and it has always been that with which I most identify a car. AC Cars also saw fit to specifically stamp the chassis with an identity. 39 PH was rolled end over end at considerable speed and wrecked. I think it highly likely that AC Cars did supply a new chassis, recorded or not . The car that was then built up by Wilment  following the crash, to me, is a continuation or follow-on replica of the actual Le Mans car. There is no argument that it in itself has real provenance but, there is more of the original Le Mans campaigned car present within 13 COB I would wager. It is of course for any buyer to decide upon value and pay according to what he thinks is reasonable.
   
   Each aluminum Cobra body is different and all panels need to be specially gapped to the individual chassis superstructure. If  Wilment had wanted to get a car race ready again in six weeks, which was achieved, then I find it fanciful that hundreds of hours would have been devoted to trying to unpick from the chassis, rivet by rivet, the existing bodywork, creating a complete mess for reassembly. Far more likely that a body-chassis unit was supplied and then modified by the Wilment team, probably incorporating many of the parts from the Le Mans incarnation. Perhaps some of its unique features that were salvageable were grafted on or copied. Nothing wrong with that in period and the DVLA were more easily satisfied in those days as VIN tags/chassis plates were riveted on or easily stamped.
   
   Compare this to the art world and consider this :
   
   Leonardo da Shelby paints the Mona Lisa. It hangs nicely until a year later a cleaner causes it to crash to the floor and the painting is a bit torn and damaged. It looks OK but is not considered good enough to go back on the wall. The frame is filled and repainted easily enough and Leonardo is asked to paint a new one. He cannot face it but, gets his willing apprentice to copy the old one. It is a good job and everyone is pleased with the result. A friend of the court always liked the picture and offers to buy the damaged one. People think he is mad when he offers good money and he uses it to drape over his dining room table.
   
   Now in the art world, which is the original Mona Lisa and which one would have the highest value? I think you would find very different principles applied by art collectors in determining the answer to that one. 'Original : present from the beginning. Not dependent upon anyone's thoughts or opinion'.

[Cobra Ned]

It helps the argument, however, that pieces of art are not issued AIN's, or Art Identity Numbers, hence there is no parallel to the VIN system for automobiles. Motor Vehicle Licensing authorities use both the VIN and the legal ownership in their determination of authenticity. Hence, a discarded part found years later in the junk pile can not claim the one and only valid VIN for any given vehicle. That is a matter of law as well as common sense.

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by SJ351... 39 PH was rolled end over end at considerable speed and wrecked... there is more of the original Le Mans campaigned car present within 13 COB I would wager..Each aluminum Cobra body is different and all panels need to be specially gapped to the individual chassis superstructure. If  Wilment had wanted to get a car race ready again in six weeks, which was achieved, then I find it fanciful that hundreds of hours would have been devoted to trying to unpick from the chassis, rivet by rivet, the existing bodywork, creating a complete mess for reassembly. Far more likely that a body-chassis unit was supplied and then modified by the Wilment team, probably incorporating many of the parts from the Le Mans incarnation. Perhaps some of its unique features that were salvageable were grafted on or copied...

   Paddy McNally`s account of the car flipping end over end at 100mph is not credible. Probably related to him third hand by chinese-whisper-exagerated race fans.
   This is what an AC Ace that flipped end over end (at considerably less than 100mph) looks like:
   
   
   (By the way, that was repaired without a replacement chassis...Click photo to see the full story.[8D])
   
   
   According to Frank Gardner, 39PH flipped and landed over a ditch at relatively low speed, and the damage was relatively minor.
   According to Jack Sears and his mechanic, Mike Brown, the damage was relatively minor. The original body was retained, with the addition of FiA-style rear wings & cutback doors. There is no way Willment would have gone to the time & trouble of recreating the unique Le Mans features on a new body. There is no record of any suspension parts being replaced. The engine would have needed a rebuild, but there is no record of that being replaced.
   The flip-down split bootlid was used at the 'Black Flag' race straight after repair. The hardtop mounts were there.
   
   The Bell and Colvill Cobra started life in 'stock' 289 guise, first appearing in the early-mid 70`s, presumably because it took that long to acquire all the parts to build it.
   
   I don`t know about art, but I know what I like. [;)]

[aaron]

quote:Originally posted by rstainer
   
So where would you get a VIN No for a car?
   From its registration document (V5C, Carte Gris etc)
   
   Is the chassis No not also the VIN No for Cobras? As the chassis No was stamped on a lot of various parts on the car for identity purposes?
   The question is the wrong way round. I'll answer a different one: Is the VIN (car number) not stamped/engraved on various parts of the car? Yes, in some places in full (eg CSX2042) and in others in part (eg 2042) when the car is made. However, as parts are replaced these stamped numbers can change.
   
   For example, COB6034 has 6056 on its bonnet latch and both door hinges, no number on its chassis and an after-market chassis plate. Its VIN is still COB6034. There are many similar examples in the Register.
   
   Any further questions on VINs and what they connote can easily be researched from authoritative sources.
   
   

   
   I have not asked any questions the wrong way round ,has COB 6034 got different part Nos as the parts were fitted to different cars at the factory ? So the cars VIN No is COB6034 ,which is also the chassis no for the car  !
   
   "•Because the owner felt like a change" So what is the VIN No for 13 COB ? because "The Bell and Colvill Cobra started life in 'stock' 289 guise, first appearing in the early-mid 70`s, presumably because it took that long to acquire all the parts to build it."