car values/desirability

[wenzeh]

I would think that the engine in the car from moblie.de is also a Windsor based engine.  And the 347 stroker Emmanueld talks about, is also in most cases nothing else then a Ford Boss engine based on the 351, but with a 8 1/2" deck rather then a 9 1/2 " deck...
   
   A Ford Windsor 351 based "Boss" engine with 427 cui with a "very decent power" output of 537 hp, but with 767Nm (566 ft lbs) of torque can spin very reliable up to 6200 rpm and stills runs in manufacturer guarantee.
   
   I would think, most people will have a problem to switch into 5th gear when driving 235km/h in 4th gear, or ? So it is not about rpm...but think about how you reach that speed!
   
   By the way all of this is working without modifying the food boxes nor the 2" exhaust system for the engine, due to smaller heads, despite the fact that the endless torque in low to midd rpm range was the goal.  With such engine you will get only randomly above 4500 rpm on a road at fast speed, that's also the very nice thing of an American V8, as you get there very fast due to torque, and in case of the MK IV also still weight.
   
   We have a very nice saying, hp's (mostly based on rpm) are for the "beer" discussions with your friends in the pub, but torque is for the street!
   
   If I would have looked for rpm, I would have looked for completely other cars ;-), as the American V8 concept is not used to serve rpm...

[Emmanueld]

First a 302 boss engine is a 4 bolts 302 Windsor block with 351 cleveland heads. It is a good spinning engine which make horsepower high up in the RPM range, it was made by Ford for the Mustang for homologation purpose. It lacks torque for the street but would be a great engine for a light Cobra. Very Large bore and long stroke small block are certainly cheap to build and can produce good power, but such motor will last at most 5,000 miles if that. Very sharp rod angle and very thin cylinders walls make for a very fragile motor. A well built small block or 427FE with solid lifters can safely rev to 7,000rpm all day long and make a great motor for a light sports car. A low revving very high torque motor is much better suited for heavy car or 4 wheel drive vehicle. Also the T5 gearbox standard in the MKIV is only rated for 300 ft lbs of torque so it will have to go if a very strong motor is used. Either a Ford Toploader of a Tremec TKO600 should be used for such an application. The motor I built for my 428 is a slightly stroked 427FE of 454 capacity its still square and revs to about 7,000 using solid lifters and makes 550 HP and about the same torque figure. Perfect for the Frua which weight close to 3,000 lbs.
   
   Emmanuel[:)]

[SJ351]

The MK1V Cobra is undoubtedly the legitimate and deserving successor to the Thames Ditton cars. A MK111 silhoutte in form, with a new chassis design underneath, itself mimicking some of the MK111's attributes again but, essentially a very clever Brian Angliss Cobra redesign with flawless execution. Done well enough to attract serious investment from a major multi-national company in the shape of Ford and legitimately wearing the AC badge, it was a master stroke and surprised many detractors at the time.
   
   Angliss continuously advertised under 'AC' in the Exchange and Mart in the early '80's, the registered trademark status of AC and that it was not to be used by others, nor non-AC cars advertised in the wrong section. He was of course fighting back the tide of kit car Cobra replicas without success before himself being taken to task by Carroll Shelby. The Brooklands factory was very impressive and produced some beautiful cars to a higher standard than Thames Ditton ever managed. A bespoke product with a waiting list that was selling at well over list at the height of the classic car boom.
   
   I think part of the problem around values is that, even within the AC owners club itself, we seem to be at odds with what the cars really are : 26 Lightweight vs. Lookalightweight vs. standard MK1V. Many cars modified back to ''original MK111'' specification and owners never even realising that the basic MK1V is essentially a completely different car - as before, essentially just a silhouette, much like the modern Ford GT versus the GT40 produced in the '60's. It is perhaps therefore unsurprising that members of the wider car buying public have trouble appreciating what the MK1V actually is, especially with most kit cars and copies being advised under the 'AC' section in the small ads. The situation is made even poorer when the kits carry replica AC badges and even chassis plates. This of course affects all genuine Cobras, but in particular the MK1V.
   
   The arrival of the Kirkham has not helped. If you want a Cobra that represents what Thames Ditton built then you could screw one together yourself for under£100k. However, I suspect the MK1V has investment potential over the next couple of decades that the Kirkham will never match. Many of us with modified MK1V dash boards etc. may one day be considering returning the car to its original hand built unadulterated factory specification. This may one day become a very sound objective, naff plastic switches and all.
   
   I  long struggled to understand why anyone would ever purchase a very high quality kit Cobra for c.£25k when MK1V's could be bought for £32k in mint condition. Their rise in value means they are essentially now beyond the reach of most people with children and a mortgage. The kit Cobra makes a lot of sense still when you have conflicting financial priorities. The basic Cobra experience is there to enjoy, real or not.
   
   The MK1V nonetheless remains the car to have if you want the genuine article and cannot afford, or are not prepared to pay for, a Thames Ditton car. As we all know, not all Thames Ditton cars are what they purport to be, with known fakes or 'continuous history' cars abound, some created by Mr Angliss himself. It is certainly easier to identify an unadulterated MK1V and then enjoy it for what it is ; a lovely piece of hand built craftsmanship with a very strong lineage.

[Emmanueld]

I am in admiration over your enthusiasm for the the markIV which is indeed a very nice car. A few corrections need to be made  however.
   1 The MKIV chassis is identical to the MKIII Cobra with the exception of the the rear suspension arms which come from the Frua.
   2  Additional bracing was added to the MKIV to meet US crash impact laws.
   3  302 small block and tranny were used because the FE was no longer produced and the small block was smog legal in the US.
   4. BA knew that without US sales  his project was doomed.
   
   People buy Kirkhams because they are faithful replicas of the Original both SB and BB  which in most people's mind are what a Cobra is ! It is as simple as that.
   
   Emmanuel[:)]

[CRS9505]

And all of you forget to mention the even cheaper (and humbler) CRS, now with prices fallen slightly, cheaper than the top end fibreglass replicas. You talk of people returning their cars to original speck yet only a few days ago you were congratulating someone for putting "retro" wheels and spinners on a CRS, the wired wheelnut being one of the few ways of telling a genuine car at a glance.

[ace_mark]

I fell in love with the Mk 1V about eighteen months ago when a friend took me out in his. A great ride, sound and overall experience, and something you could use on the road fairly often weather permitting.
   
   I started looking seriously about three months ago, and just missed out on the yellow ex Bill Bridges car mentioned above. There were a few minor things that needed sorting on the car, + a new non-racing clutch.
   Great engine and a valuable number plate too, sold for £52.5k.
   Now I'm really confused. I see pretty average Mk1Vs being offered in the £70-100k range that have been sitting there forever (and are beyond my budget), and one at Coys recently that didn't sell for less than that. Lots of adverts also highlight what "great investments" they are, which usually means "I want to get out quick before the market drops"
   
   Recent sales activity would suggest prices peaked about 2012 and are effectively falling
   
   Now I'm thinking maybe a nice replica would give me the same fun for less than half the price, though my heart says I'd like a "real" one that would hopefully also retain or increase in value.
   
   Confussed !

[dkp_cobra]

quote:Originally posted by ace
   
I fell in love with the Mk 1V about eighteen months ago when a friend took me out in his. A great ride, sound and overall experience, and something you could use on the road fairly often weather permitting.
   
   I started looking seriously about three months ago, and just missed out on the yellow ex Bill Bridges car mentioned above. There were a few minor things that needed sorting on the car, + a new non-racing clutch.
   Great engine and a valuable number plate too, sold for £52.5k.
   Now I'm really confused. I see pretty average Mk1Vs being offered in the £70-100k range that have been sitting there forever (and are beyond my budget), and one at Coys recently that didn't sell for less than that. Lots of adverts also highlight what "great investments" they are, which usually means "I want to get out quick before the market drops"
   
   Recent sales activity would suggest prices peaked about 2012 and are effectively falling
   
   Now I'm thinking maybe a nice replica would give me the same fun for less than half the price, though my heart says I'd like a "real" one that would hopefully also retain or increase in value.
   
   Confussed !
   
   

   
   Is a MK IV CRS an option? http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C469234

[SJ351]

The CRS is indeed currently good value and very credible as a road car with a very similar chassis to the MK1V. A better long term bet than a kit in my book if you want to enjoy a Cobra and maybe be surprised at what it might fetch one day when you come to sell it.
   
   Emmanueld : I am afraid you are wrong. The MK1V chassis is very different to the MK111 in its dimensions and execution, although you are right if you mean the suspension layout etc are similar. The early MK1V cars used different MK111 style suspension arms briefly before Brian went to a bespoke re-design. If you want the ultimate race engine then an all alloy Fontana Clevor block with steel crank and rods is a very good place to start, as I am sure you will know. Mine puts out 580 BHP at 6800 RPM.

[ace_mark]

I have considered the CRS but again I can't see how a car sold for £39k 10-14 years ago is worth pretty much the same today.
   
   Money put into an Aston Martin, Jag, Ferrari etc then would have at least halved by now.

[ak1040]

Hi mark to buy a Ac is to drive,not just to make £ please enjoy the car ? CRS .MKIV or III what ever your budget. Neil

[Emmanueld]

BA inherited all the Thames Ditton  part bin, this is why the MKIV use AC428 parts. Even the chassis is a shortened 428 part and this is why the cross members are in slightly different locations than on the MKIII and that the track is wider! (428 rear uprights) No evolution there, straight Thames Ditton.  Still the 4" tube chassis as well. Later models post BA have a different chassis but that's another story.
   I would buy another early MKIV if I found a nice one. Could install a modern Mustang modular OHC engine with all smog gear, it would make an awesome California legal car.
   Emmanuel[:)]

[jbottini]

MKIV, ??

[ANF289]

quote:Originally posted by ace
   
I have considered the CRS but again I can't see how a car sold for £39k 10-14 years ago is worth pretty much the same today.
   
   Money put into an Aston Martin, Jag, Ferrari etc then would have at least halved by now.
   
   

   AC vs replica... you may have answered your own question.  The car market is like the stock market, it goes up and down.  But in the long run, if you got the right car, it will go up.  Maybe not in your lifetime, so plan on leaving it to your kid!

[Hobo]

AK1040 meets the point, drive it love it – it's not all about money.
   
   Started my "Cobra-life" with Replikas – and still have one – over the years I ended up with aluminum bodied MKIVs. An AC/AutoKraft MkIV or CRS will be the ultimate car (sorry Kirkham / Shelby guys) if you do not enter the hemisphere of CSX/COX/COB-originals.
   
   Again first priority for me is: Drive and love the car, being enthusiastic about design, appearance, genetic roots, etc. etc. – this is what I would summarize under "value" for me (nothing with an unit €,  $ or £ in behind). I never had in mind to earn big money with my hobby, when buying and selling over the years, however I keep always an eye on not to loose money with stupid acquisitions and with a MkIV or CRS you will not loose any . If you want to go for big money keep out of automobile sector - simply become a commodity trader or investment banker.
   
   @ Emmanueld
   I agree: There is no need to put a high-power big-block engine in a MkIV.
   I have some experience with different set ups and my conclusion is: It's all about weight.
   My latest order for an engine therefore has been a Dart aluminum small block (302 cui) stroked
   to 347 cui. As it is build NOT for racing purposes it is equipped with a relative mild cam (full hydr. Roller E303) and low riser intake, producing 405 hp / 415 ft lbs, redline 6250 rpm.
   Engine is not in Europe yet but ready for shipping :-)

[Mark IV]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   
BA inherited all the Thames Ditton  part bin, this is why the MKIV use AC428 parts. Even the chassis is a shortened 428 part and this is why the cross members are in slightly different locations than on the MKIII and that the track is wider! (428 rear uprights) No evolution there, straight Thames Ditton.  Still the 4" tube chassis as well. Later models post BA have a different chassis but that's another story.
   I would buy another early MKIV if I found a nice one. Could install a modern Mustang modular OHC engine with all smog gear, it would make an awesome California legal car.
   Emmanuel[:)]
   

   
   The cross members are located differently than a MK III due to the needs of the 5.0 engine, the sump used and the catalytic convertors that needed to be packaged in the car. As well as the transmission mount being in a different spot than the top loader.
   
   While there is some Frua DNA in the MK IV, it is NOT a "shortened MK IV!" For whatever reason you didn't like your MK IV, many do. Many would also question your "redesign" of the Frua. You are making a great car out of it but it will no longer be what AC sold it as. Who is right? Everybody! It is yours and do with it what you will...............