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car values/desirability

Started by nick Godridge, January 28, 2014, 09:03:30

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nick Godridge

Following up on my previous post on this subject, if you have not done so already, go to "an original cobra: an outsiders point of view" on the Thames Ditton forum.
   
   Seems all is not well in paradise. MK 1V perceived as same as Kirkham by the luminaries.
   
   No wonder they are not following T.D products ever upwards!!
   
   Nick G

nikbj68

Paradise Lost?
   I`ve always struggled with the perception of the MkIV. To me it was always a natural progression, update, revision, development, continuation, evolution but essentially NOT a replica.    But that`s just me... and I ain`t no Luminary![;)]
   The MkIV can never 'sell' racing history like some T.D Cobras do, where some are 'worth' double or triple the value of a 'no stories street car', but they are certainly following 'the market' upwards, at times at an advanced rate, but it appears that there is a downward curve at the moment. Hard to pin down a realistic value when you can have MkIVs on sale at £100,000+ and sub-£60,000 at the same time, even £35k for the 'prototype' CRS!

302EFI

quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
   
Paradise Lost?
   ... Hard to pin down a realistic value when you can have MkIVs on sale at £100,000+ and sub-£60,000 at the same time, even £35k for the 'prototype' CRS!
   
   

   It should be remembered that the condition of a car can have a significant impact on its value. The yellow Mk IV recently offered for GBP 55,000, for instance, is advertised as being 'in generally good condition'. According to my experience such language used in an advertisement does in fact mean that the condition of a car is poor, to put it mildly.

nikbj68

...But, with some serious competition history to factor in, in the hands of a modern-day Cobra legend! It still seems inexpensive to me.
   I agree with you about the possibilities of condition and description being way apart (Note: NOT suggesting that the ad for the yellow MkIV is in ANY WAY inaccurate!) and that really backs up my point about how hard it is from 'out here' to guess at accurate values.

jrlucke

I believe that the post "T.D." era cars will always sell at a discount with how much depending on condition, mods, economy.
   
   I've followed A.C.'s since the early 1960s and purchased an Ace 2.6 in the early 1970's for $2,000 (now find one for less than $300,000).
   
   A good example was the newly rebuilt highly modified Aceca selling for $60,000 while a restored Aceca Bristol went unsold with a $140,000 bid.
   
   Recently I drive newer Corvettes and follow their values. A restored '69 L88 427 will bring somewhere in the $200,000 range. A restored well storied race version just sold for $2.9m! Similarly mid 60's 427's were nearing $200,000 but a 1 of 1  (options plus red/red color) sold for $850,000. The fact that it was the only red exterior/red interior car built added $500,000!
   
   In my mind the market for normal cars is off right now but rare or storied cars seem to be going for a premium. A great example is the Ferrari 330 GTS which sold in Scottsdale this month. It was driven 30,000 miles had a fire and went to the insurance company before being lost for 40 years. Un-repaired and not running it sold for $2.1m. The story probably added $1.25m.. to the price!
   
   Rarety, provinance and stories bring the money.
   
   John

French Frie

Once again, I think we're too focused on value and asset, even if nobody likes loosing money ... I've never lost money on my classic cars (major engine breakdown excepted), and selling some with benefit allowed me to buy my MKIV; but each time I bought a car I was in love with, leaded by passion, and even if I was careful about its possible resale value, it was never the major point.
   
   regarding the MKIV, I do think that a part of the "problem" is its unknown history. For example, there have been no article about it in French press (classic or not) since at least ten years! nobody knows it, even in the classic cars fans audience, and even Cobra fans don't know its history ! Kirkham are much more well known, and are often supposed to be the only aluminium bodied cobras ! I had to "educate" the Artcurial consultant about the MKIV he was selling few months ago, and he was happy to know more about it (the car finally sold for k€82, with english plates)...
   
    I know it's a bit different on the other side of the channel, but I really think that education is essential ! it is always a pleasure to inform people about the car, and I assume it is useful, regarding the forecast value [;)] ...

302EFI

quote:
Originally posted by French Frie
   
Once again, I think we're too focused on value and asset, even if nobody likes loosing money ... I've never lost money on my classic cars (major engine breakdown excepted), and selling some with benefit allowed me to buy my MKIV; but each time I bought a car I was in love with, leaded by passion, and even if I was careful about its possible resale value, it was never the major point.
   ...
   

   I fully agree, Olivier. Value and prices should not be the main points for us to be concerned with. However, if you are about to spend a six digit Euro amount on a 'toy' like a classic car, it will be very helpful for getting the permit from your better half if you can point out that you are not likely to lose money if you wish or have to sell the car again...

TLegate

"MkIV perceived as same as Kirkham"? Apart from mangled syntax, I can't find any reference to that. Confused.

nick Godridge

What does syntax mean  Trevor?
   
   In the post I referred to, in the TD section of the forum, you describe your own preference for a Kirkham. In the same post member SJ351 puts a Kirkham ahead of a Mk1V when describing his friends view of purchase options. Admittedly the context relates to a car which can be 'used'.
   
   Surely, this is worrying to hear in a market pushing replica prices into the same bracket as original cars. Of course, market trends are themselves fashioned by publicity, and, inputs from any number of sources, which would,I guess, include views from within the ACOC and its experts.
   
   Nick G

TLegate

To try to clarify an assumption, I did not say, nor infer, that I "preferred a Kirkham to a MkIV". As you later point out, I was referring to a car to be used on a regular basis. I don't see how that indicates a preference? I once came very close to owning what could be argued was the 'best' MkIV to leave the factory which was offered to me at a bargain price. It was so perfect that I doubt I would have used it as I should since the fist stone chip would have ruined it! (I stupidly declined the offer) Personally I'd be very happy with a good replica - many are available, I said Kirkham as an example mainly as they are made in ali - as I wouldn't be 'quite' so distraught at the first dent whilst parked outside Tesco (sorry, Waitrose).

ANF289

quote:
Originally posted by French Frie
   
Once again, I think we're too focused on value and asset, even if nobody likes loosing money ... regarding the MKIV, I do think that a part of the "problem" is its unknown history.

   Mk IV owners appear to be focused on many things, but its confused status certainly benefits those who focus on the joy derived from looking at and the fun derived by driving the thing.  Fact is, there is more now than ever before on the internet about the car, so anyone can become familiar with the history, as seen here:
   
   http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=1359385
   
   http://mycarquest.com/2013/06/the-ac-cobra-mk-iv-what-a-terrific-car.html
   
   http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2012/3/31/Unique-of-the-Week-1985-AC-Cobra-Mk-IV-7708033/
   
   http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/front_website/octane_interact/carspecs.php/?see=3493
   
   http://www.topspeed.com/cars/ac-cars/1986-ac-autokraft-mkiv-cobra-ar129167.html
   
   http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/octane_features/271279/driven_ac_cobra_mkiv.html
   
   The problem, if there is one, is likely to be more than an unknown history.  I personally don't think there is a problem.
   
   For those who are focused on value, I don't see that prices have dropped, at least in the states.  If anything, there seems to be a movement towards an equilibrium point (~ $100,000) resting between the typically higher prices seen in Great Britain/Europe and the typically lower prices seen in the USA.  Worldwide, on average, prices appear to be creeping up.  I'm sure that statement could start a fight in just about any bar (pub) in the world!

French Frie

ANF289,not sure to understand all the subtilities of your answer (but try the same in French !), but you're talking about your experience, and I'm talking about mine [;)]... and I confirm that the MKIV is unknown by most of the enthusiasts here ! and I remember the story of US guys on this forum who said that they weren't very welcomed at classic events, because of this ignorance. and I assume that a Cobra is more a Shelby than an AC on your side of pond...
   
   But I agree with you about the fact that the overall trend is rather upwards... and there is NO problem to me, as the only thing I want is enjoy and drive my car, in a quite shelfish way, and do not plan to sell it !

ANF289

quote:
Originally posted by French Frie
   
ANF289,not sure to understand all the subtilities of your answer (but try the same in French !), but you're talking about your experience, and I'm talking about mine [;)]... and I confirm that the MKIV is unknown by most of the enthusiasts here ! and I remember the story of US guys on this forum who said that they weren't very welcomed at classic events, because of this ignorance. and I assume that a Cobra is more a Shelby than an AC on your side of pond...
   
   But I agree with you about the fact that the overall trend is rather upwards... and there is NO problem to me, as the only thing I want is enjoy and drive my car, in a quite shelfish way, and do not plan to sell it !
   

   I believe we are saying the same thing, and you certainly can say it better in English than I could ever attempt it in French!).  My point was simply that the "problem" with the history is easily remedied... the "problem" with people not wanting to learn anything that they don't believe, is another story. [;)]

dkp_cobra

Short story from the last days. The place: a german forum for Cobra replicas. A new thread is started: "hello, my name is ... and I would like to buy a cobra. My budget is 35T€. What do you think about this car ..." followed by a link to a car which looks like a Cobra if you close your eyes. The answers came fast, this wasn't a good car. Ok, next entry from the owner of the thread: "ok, thank you for the input. What do you think about this car" again followed by a link to a much better kitcar but this time for 60T€ [:0]
   
   I wrote that if you have 60T€ to spend you probably have 66T€ for you next car. I pointed him to the yellow MK IV from Romance of Rust and to the MK V prototype offered at ebay.
   
   His answer: well, the color is not so nice, one car is RHD and I have heard some bad things about english kitcars. [xx(] "English kitcars" in this context? He had absolute no idea about AC MK IV and AC MK V but he knows DAX, RAM and so on.  Where should I start with the explanations? Well, my answer was not so kind but I promised to have a look at some overpayed DAX at next exhibition coming weekend ...

ANF289

quote:
Originally posted by dkp_cobra
   
Short story..

   Touché! [:D]