AC 428 owners experience?

[Classicus]

quote:While there are certainly better and lesser ways to position the headlights for aerodynamic advantage, one still has to push the entire vehicle's cross section through the air....Perhaps a way could be designed to add that styling touch to better slip through the wind in that area.

   I've thought about this quite a lot as well and I still think anything else will always be drifting too far away from the original precious (!) flavour. It could however be interesting to see a detailed drawing of the 428 with similar headlight covers as the Porsche Boxster.
   
   

[Howard Somerville]

That Daytona is an elegant car, like an E-Type Jaguar merged with a modern XK.  But the front is too modern-looking (too tapered in profile) for a MKII AC428. The latter, as a road car, would also need a metal front bumper and number plate, which the TVR manages to incorporate neatly.  A large enough air scoop underneath, incorporating a subtle spoiler surely would solve the engine bay airflow problem, as Chuck says.  Perhaps moving the engine forward 1/2" would also allow a sufficient air flow over the transmission.  I'd be against perspex headlamp covers though; I don't think they'd make a significant difference aerodynamically.
   
   Are there no aftermarket fitments for the Ford 428 engine?  I had a Chevy V8 with go-faster headers, camshaft, electronic ignition etc. etc.  These cost little, increased BHP by 40% and actually IMPROVED tractability and fuel economy.

[Classicus]

quote:But the front is too modern-looking (too tapered in profile) for a MKII AC428.

   Absolutely ! I never meant anything about the car whatsoever only the headlamp covers.
   
   First point. I've always hated and still don't understand anything mechanically oriented at all ! And never will. [8D]
   
   However I'm very much into design and I've been hooked on the 428 for over 30 years as being the finest example I've ever seen, also your early experiences pretty much follow my own. So believe you me I would leave as much of the original design in place as possible, and to be honest and happily subjective no Porsche and a heck of a lot of other similar car's designs have ever been of the slightest interest either.
   
   

quote:I'd be against perspex headlamp covers though; I don't think they'd make a significant difference aerodynamically.

   That wasn't quite my point and although I haven't a clue about aerodynamics either, it would be unimportant as the perspex or similar material (?) can always be replaced very cheaply. So whilst you can never gild a lily, this might just add an extra touch of elegance and grace to the front of an already almost unbeatable design.
   
   Ã‡a marche tres bien [:)]

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by Howard Somerville
   
Are there no aftermarket fitments for the Ford 428 engine?  I had a Chevy V8 with go-faster headers, camshaft, electronic ignition etc. etc.  These cost little, increased BHP by 40% and actually IMPROVED tractability and fuel economy.
   

   
   Howard,
   The FE engine series have ton's of aftermarket goodies available, not as much as Chevy of course but nevertheless the possibilities are endless! You want 500hp, no problem, 700hp, 1250hp no problem  what ever you want. Just converting the motor to Cobrajet specs will add 50 to 60hp. The frua being based on the Cobra 427 has tons of parts available for fitments, sway bars, shocks, wheels brakes, Aluminum rearend, Quaife differentials, modern 5 speed boxes, you name it! your wallet is the limit. Because the car is rare and because AC and Cobra owners add tons of aftermarket items to their cars, the value will not be affected if modifications are:
   1) Improve the car
   2) done testfully
   3) are easily reversible
   
   Regards,
   
   Emmanuel

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   
A Frua with proper gearing and a decent cross bolted 427 side oiler motor should out speed a 427 Cobra (in the straight of course). The MKIII would not go above 185 mph no matter the gears, and that's without the windscreen, it's a brick! The 428 coupe, with 6" longer chassis and much better aero, should be much faster than that despite the extra 500lbs. It should go like a Daytona probably or better (Daytona has only 350hp). With 5 speed and lets say .86 fifth and 3.31 rear,  if the engine can spin around 6 to 6500 RPM you would be going about 200MPH!

It is my finite understanding that top speed is mainly an equation of RPM's, Gearing and enough Horsepower to overcome resistance [both mechanical and aerodynamic] at the highest end speed.  As long as acceleration time to that top speed isn't a major concern the engine size or mechanical details are not as vital to the situation.

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   
Ask Andy about his racing 428. AC used a pickup truck engine in the car with no cam and a tiny carb, the C6 box is very heavy and rubs much power, probably 30bhp. Since I converted mine to 4 speed, the car drives like a Cobra, it has a whole new personality. I think I will install a TKO with .86 5th for better highway cruising.
   
   Emmanuel
   

I'd also think that the 6" longer wheelbase would allow for more overall cornering ability/power [albeit with a bit of a responsiveness penalty] than the shorter wheelbased Cobra's because of it's longer stance...  But that may just be misinformation or misunderstanding on my part of the physics of that situation.
   
   I can't profess to speak for anyone other than myself.  So with that in mind, my vision for a Mark II would be to retain as much of the advantageous traits of the "Mark I" while addressing the most glaring of it's issues while keeping the end result in a similar flavor as the original.
   
   I know Emmanuel you're an advocate of the 427 side oiler...  I personally consider it the finest engine Ford ever made.  But I personally would be hesitant to swap out the amicable 428 with it's admirable all-situations manners for the far more racing oriented [Get there first-est with the most-est [to paraphrase a American civil war general]] 427 .  Actually, the past twenty years, I've logged more miles in cars with 427 powerplants than with 428's.  Yes, I love the snappy-ness of the 427, but they are a handful in real-world situations in my experience.  For me the 428 has the advantage in worry free fast all day driving/touring.  I mean if all I was after was an acceleration, braking, cornering platform, I'd go the modern Cobra 427 Kit Car Route with no apologies or afterthoughts.
   
   To me the first "problem" area needing improvement is the engine compartment heat issue.  I'd think for me, second would be to try do some enhancements to the engine with an idea of reducing weight over the front suspension and perhaps enhancing performance.  What you say about the Autolite Carb not being the optimal choice is TRVTH!  I'm pretty sure that CF 7 sports it's original Autolite carb, and I remember vividly that the CFX AC I saw with my folks in Oakville, Ontario Canada in the 1977 timeframe had a Holley on it and it was the general consensus among my folks and I that so equipped it would have paddled CF 7's tail in a one on one contest.  It'd seem like the carb used on the CobraJet 428's would be a good choice.  The Third area would be addressing the AC428's somewhat lacking top end.  While I'm sure a Manual equipped AC 428 would have a higher top end than a C6 automatic there probably are better options for both manual and automatic transmissions.
   
   Less needing of attention [and hence optional in my opinion] would be wish list items like flush mount side glass and headlamp covers.  I personally probably wouldn't want to add perspex covers to a Mark II of mine, but perhaps a way could be engineered where they could be easily be "dropped in" when desirable.
   
   I guess though, in the end, when it comes to a Mark II AC 428 Frua, if it's done as a stretched Cobra 427 Frame with a Fibreglass replica body, the details would really be up to each individual "assembler" as to fitting out details.  One person may choose to make their Mark II as close to the original as possible.  Another might choose to squeeze in a SOHC Cammer 427 with a High-Perf manual transmission to make a Ford GT hunter.  A third person may go with Chevy or Viper mechanicals.  It'd be up to each person to fit 'em out to their own personal tastes.
   
   --  Chuck

[runt]

I go along with those sentiments Chuck, interestingly a swing in the 'kit car' scene over here shows a renewed demand for the FE motor in 427 replicas, many avoiding the cost of a 427 side oiler by using the visually similar 390 FE with a stroked crank and of course the ally heads saving LBS in weight, as said massive potential in these leviathans!
   
   Paul.[:)]

[Howard Somerville]

quote:Originally posted by Classicus
   
Your early experiences pretty much follow my own.

   Like a bird-watcher on the lookout for the rare and elusive Lesser Spotted Reed-Warbler, I'd always looked out for the AC428.
   
   Considering that only 80-odd ever existed, the fact that between 1968 and 1981 I spotted no fewer than SEVEN of them (3 convertibles and 4 Fastbacks) on roads in Central and West London must be a statistical fluke.
   
   It's sad to think that some or all of those beautiful birds were allowed to die from Iron Oxide disease, pushing the species to the edge of extinction.
   
   One, a convertible, I'd seen before; it had been on sale at the London Motor Fair around 1978. Fully restored, its (replacement) 428 engine was stated to have been the very last one to come off Ford's production line.

[Classicus]

quote:Like a bird-watcher on the lookout for the rare and elusive Lesser Spotted Reed-Warbler, I'd always looked out for AC428s.

   Me too !! That and London office crumpet at lunchtimes [:p]  [:p]
   
   So you might be interested in my ridiculously effusive first post to the forum ! Scroll about halfway down to my first post on March 7th and follow the thread a bit.
   
   http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=2
   
   The crashed fastback btw was CF 62 which was later repaired as you can see from the 428 Register. Makes you wonder if the chassis was bent though and whether they can ever really be repaired safely or not ?
   
   Cass [:)] ( Paul actually but as there's another Paul it's easier….)

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
I go along with those sentiments Chuck, interestingly a swing in the 'kit car' scene over here shows a renewed demand for the FE motor in 427 replicas, many avoiding the cost of a 427 side oiler by using the visually similar 390 FE with a stroked crank and of course the ally heads saving LBS in weight, as said massive potential in these leviathans!
   
   Paul.[:)]

   
   For me the real benefit of the 427, aside from performance bene's, are the cross-bolted main caps. My first car was a 1969 Torino GT Convertible with a 390/stick and it's a very capable engine.  Probably more forgiving in daily use than it's more high-strung higher-displacement sibling.  I know there are probably all sorts of benefits with Bow-Tie power in terms of parts [especially aftermarket] availability.  But to me, there is just something inherently wrong with a Chevy [or Mopar] plant in a Cobra, or Mustang, or Shelby.  And for me it's just as abhorrent to see a Ford plant in a Camaro or Corvette.  Some things are just wrong!  LOL!
   
   Of course there are modern conveniences which I would like a Mark II to possess...  A modern stereo system with integrated CD/MP3CD player [in-dash single or multi-disk would be fine], with easy fuss-free MP3 player [iPod] connectivity. Satellite Radio would be warmly received [especially on longer trips] and GPS would be a boon for Touring.
   
   Perhaps a more controversial possible addition [again this is for an AC 428 Frua Mark II kit] would be Cruise Control.  I know this is something that really flies in the face of the spirit of driver involvement when it come to the driving experience, but people who would protest the loudest have probably not driven across Nebraska on a overcast day.  I spent an entire summer driving across Nebraska one afternoon [and if that sentence doesn't make sense to you, you've never been to Nebraska: for if you have driven across Nebraska on Interstate 80, it makes perfect sense].
   
   Aside from those features, I am hard pressed to think of any other additions.  Of course, sourcing original seating would likely be problematic, but I see that as an opportunity for owners to pick seating that appeals to themselves.  There are probably some really nice Recaro or Schell seats which might be an improvement than the originals.  Hmmm...  This is an interesting link:
   
   http://www.cerullo.com/sportsSeats/
   
   Nice to see a section for Cobra 289/427 seating.  I'd think the GT or SC seats would look good in a Mark II.  And the F1 from this site is "Designed in conjunction with Carroll Shelby for use in the Limited Edition Series 1 Sports Car" interestingly enough.
   
   Any other thoughts from the peanut gallery about what additions/changes they might incorporate in a AC 428 Frua Mark II kit they built [or had built turnkey]?  I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.
   
   --  Chuck

[runt]

Chuck, whilst 'variety is the spice of life' is a favourite phrase of mine,  sorry Chev lovers.. of course any AC or Shelby clone must have Fo Mo Co power..!
   
    I feel that when we start to consider the interior trim for our AC 428 Mk2, there could be plenty of diversity as to; colors, seating for various sizes of pilot.. instrumentation, equipment, BUT.. any credible sports/GT should conform to this runt's insistence that ONLY REAL HIDE will do; I also like the fluted hide headlining as used in some old Ferraris (and some old airplane cockpits too..)
   
   Paul.[:)]

[Classicus]

Once remember thinking that it was definitely a car for the single guy rather a family man. Where to put the kids and so on....all that space....

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck, whilst 'variety is the spice of life' is a favourite phrase of mine,  sorry Chev lovers.. of course any AC or Shelby clone must have Fo Mo Co power..!

   No argument from me, after all I did say:

quote:Originally posted by cmaddox3
   
I know there are probably all sorts of benefits with Bow-Tie power in terms of parts [especially aftermarket] availability. But to me, there is just something inherently wrong with a Chevy [or Mopar] plant in a Cobra, or Mustang, or Shelby. And for me it's just as abhorrent to see a Ford plant in a Camaro or Corvette. Some things are just wrong! LOL!"

   And I firmly believe that if a AC 428 Frua were to be some sort of continuation edition, I am in full agreement.  The powerplant would have to be Blue Oval and preferably FE block based if not 428 or 427 based.  However, if the Mark II is basically a kit car where someone obtains a stretched 427 Cobra chassis [I'd think rolling chassis would be quickest and easiest for most folks] and then attaches a Frua body to it, then the powerplant becomes a matter of owner/builder choice.  As does the rest of the "fitting out" details.
   

quote:Originally posted by runt
   
I feel that when we start to consider the interior trim for our AC 428 Mk2, there could be plenty of diversity as to; colors, seating for various sizes of pilot.. instrumentation, equipment, BUT.. any credible sports/GT should conform to this runt's insistence that ONLY REAL HIDE will do; I also like the fluted hide headlining as used in some old Ferraris (and some old airplane cockpits too..)
   
   Paul.[:)]

   And here I thought my preferred option list including a stereo with CD/MP3CD/iPod integration [minimum] preferably with Satellite Radio reception as well, GPS and [Gasp!] Cruise Control would generate protests...
   
   No, for me, even a kit Mark II Frua would have to have a block which started life as a 428 for it's powerplant [OK, I would strongly consider a 406 and 427 FE block as well].  As I've said, I wouldn't have any qualms about going with upgraded carb, intake and exhaust manifolds, improved ignition, or other reasonable and modest upgrades with the goal of improving the end result though. Of course, were I interested in building a racer...  The 427 would be the way to go.  I'm thinking tunnel port would be serviceable.
   
   But who am I to dictate other people's vision?
   
   

quote:Originally posted by Classicus
   
Once remember thinking that it was definitely a car for the single guy rather a family man. Where to put the kids and so on....all that space....

   
   Well, Neither the AC Cobras [et. al.] nor the Frua's seem to be congruent with a family man with small kids.  It's more of a Single Man's or Couple's touring car.  I could see it as an Executive/Businessman's ride though.
   
   I always thought that it would be an ideal Spy's car...  I mean it'd have the performance edge over most anything 007 drove back in the day and was a far more exclusive car than the Lotus and Aston Martin's Bond was usually paired up with and with that big honkin' V8 in it, probably one helluva lot more reliable.
   
   --  Chuck

[Classicus]

quote:Well, Neither the AC Cobras [et. al.] nor the Frua's seem to be congruent with a family man with small kids. It's more of a Single Man's or Couple's touring car. I could see it as an Executive/Businessman's ride though.

   
   I was thinking generally, leaning towards increasing the MK 2's market share and not excluding those enthusiast family guys who might like to have their cake and eat it. Offering either a slightly longer body somehow or shortening the boot depth area to make much more use of the "neither one thing nor t'other" rear squab area which is really only suitable for small cases and odds and ends. In fact I've always thought this non mechanical area is the most overlooked and least thought out of all. A few more inches and possibly there'd be enough leg room to suit most 8 - 10 year olds ?

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by Classicus

quote:Well, Neither the AC Cobras [et. al.] nor the Frua's seem to be congruent with a family man with small kids. It's more of a Single Man's or Couple's touring car. I could see it as an Executive/Businessman's ride though.

I was thinking generally, leaning towards increasing the MK 2's market share and not excluding those enthusiast family guys who might like to have their cake and eat it. Offering either a slightly longer body somehow or shortening the boot depth area to make much more use of the "neither one thing nor t'other" rear squab area which is really only suitable for small cases and odds and ends. In fact I've always thought this non mechanical area is the most overlooked and least thought out of all. A few more inches and possibly there'd be enough leg room to suit most 8 - 10 year olds ?

Perhaps European 8-10 year olds...  Most Yank [and Cannuck] Pre-"Tween-aged" youngsters are probably as sizeable as as "Tween" or even early teen-aged British youngsters these days.  Even when I was of that age [I was 11 years old when I visited the UK with my family] we ran into a school group of boys my age at Stonehenge and they were much closer in size to my then 7 year old sister than I was.  My folks asked me why I wasn't mixing with the local boys and I said "They are just little tykes!", to which my parents said "They are your age" I said disbelievingly "No! You're kidding!" but they were.  I'm sure I have some pictures my folks took at the time, I would have been André the Giant sized in their school...  And while I was one of the larger kids in my grade at school there were at least a half a dozen boys my height or taller, and a couple heavier.  This was in the spring of 1973 [my god! nearly 35 years ago now!  Hard to believe!]
   
   However, I suspose one could "truncate" the Trunk [as it were] and might be able to scavenge enough room on the current back shelf for a bassinette, or perhaps for a Kindergarten aged child or maybe two for short trips, but I'd think it'd be a very tight and uncomfortable trip.  Otherwise one would have to elongate the body and passenger compartment along similar lines as the Jaguar XKE 2+2 or Datsun 2x0Z 2+2 models and I'm not sure a AC 428 Frua Mark II+2 would fare any better in the press or among customers any better than those models did.  But that's just me.
   
   Of course if a Mark II was done as a Kit car, one could specify an even further stretched frame [perhaps an additional 6" or 12"] and then work on crafting a stretched body to match.  A Mark+2 would probably have a Squared off Greenhouse:
   
   Compared to the original [2-seater]:
   
   [Thank you Datsun Z-Car's for stepping in to illustrate my thought] Unless, one was to spend a good deal of time styling for a better result.
   
   I don't know...  I just think it'd be easier to walk [at first] before making a lot of changes.
   
   But again, that's just my opinion...
   
   --  Chuck
   
   P.S. I wonder how much trouble it would be to adapt a Z-Car's chin spoiler to provide a little more airflow into Mr. Frua's engine compartment...  Hmmm...  --  Chuck

[Howard Somerville]

quote:Originally posted by nikbj68
   

quote:Originally posted by Chuck M...It's not bad, but I wouldn't want to stray too far from...the original Frua shape.

   
   For styling clues, look no further than the 1991 Aston Martin DB7.  Its coupe body was perfect from every angle, the only one ever to be so.
   
   I would start with that, and superimpose on it the AC428's distinguishing stylistic details - the squared wheel arches, the side vents,(slightly) raised round headlamps, and the roofline. A hybrid and a pastiche, but the best of the two best designs - surely a winning formula.