AC 427 S/C Continuation

[Emmanueld]

It depends who builds the car! over here, A proper builder will charge you around $50K to put it together and paint it! Unless you can do it yourself! How easy is it to register such thing in the UK?   Emmanuel

[dave]

Hi  Emmanuel.
   Registering in the UK can be somewhat tricky but not impossible if you know what need doing to make the car compliant for the test.[;)]
   $50K sounds a lot of money to assemble and paint what I would expect to be a quality kit [:0](ie. The parts fit together like you'd expect). But if that's what people are prepared to pay over there.....[V]
   Rock and a hard place here for me. If I go into details it would look like advertising and if i don't it looks like I don't know what I'm talking about....Hey ho.[:(][:)]

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
   $50K sounds a lot of money to assemble and paint what I would expect to be a quality kit [:0](ie. The parts fit together like you'd expect). But if that's what people are prepared to pay over there.....[V]
   

   
   Kirkhams are not kits, you are getting a rolling chassis, just like Shelby was getting from AC in the 60s' (427 MKIII only), the series 1 and 2 came already assembled from England, I think!. You still have to assemble all the components such as the wiring, brakes, hydraulics, upholstery, steering columm etc. You have to weld the motor mounts, transmission mounts, (I believe that they can do that for you if you tell them which Ford motor and which trans you will use),you have to provide and size the driveshaft for your particular choice of power, the driveline has to be aligned, etc. Also the aluminum has to be prepared for painting, sanded, primed etc, the windshield has to be fitted etc. There is a huge amount of labor, you have to make all the holes etc. For the car to drive like an original or better, it has to be assembled professionally. For example, what transmission mounts did Shelby use for the toploader in the 427? Chevy BB trans mount, the billet part supplied by Kirkham is too hard and the car will vibrate.  if you do not know that, you will have problems, etc. So many of these cars have been butchered by want-to-be novice car builders. Buyer be aware! This is why you want to use a pro! Also when you stick a 500hp motor in the car you better make sure it is properly fitted. Panel fit is very good, better than the original car, but still some adjusting and minor body work will be needed to make the car look great!
   By the way, for you English guys, Kirkham can provide all their cars with an optional Stainless Steel chassis. You can polish it, paint it or leave it bare. No rust ever! Great. However, I understand that because the material is softer, the car is not as rigid! If you want to race, use the regular chassis. Every part will fit an original car, only a pro can tell the difference.
   
   A well built 427 motor will set you up $20 to $25K minimum, you can build a 428 or a small block for $10 to $15K.
   
   By the way, the favorite Kirkham for the Cobra guys here in Southern Cal (I am talking about people who also own original cars) is the the FIA body fitted with a small block and a coil spring chassis! This is the best looking and best handling combo! This is the car Shelby should have built! [:D]
   
   Emmanuel

[Emmanueld]

Here are a few photos of a properly built Kirkham 427 S/C:
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Emmanuel

[dave]

Hi Emmanuel.
   What you have described above is a kit car with a factory rolling chassis.
   I'm sure (As with most other kits) the info on specialist parts is available either from the manufacturer or internet forums.
   The car in the pictures above is fitted with a Pacet pull fan. I don't think these were made in the 1960's.
   All my prices listed in my previous post were on Pounds sterling not USD curreny exchange rate around 1.98 USD = 1.0 GB Pounds.
   Stainless steel is not softer but harder than mild steel. It is also heavier and much more brittle.
   There are loads of books and websites with info on the Cobra so learning about them is not difficult.

[TLegate]

Hi Dave
   
   I would say you in the ballpark, give or take. Personally I would budget an extra £10K just to be safe. A pukka paint job is £5K+ as I have discovered and I know of one owner who more than doubled that figure! I think all the UK Kirkhams are ordered with engine mounts pre-fitted, so engine has to be decided first (always a sensible idea) Unlike one customer who ordered a chassis and then decided a body might be nice, and then possibly some suspension pieces, maybe....(good grief!)

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
Hi Emmanuel.
   What you have described above is a kit car with a factory rolling chassis.
   I'm sure (As with most other kits) the info on specialist parts is available either from the manufacturer or internet forums.
   The car in the pictures above is fitted with a Pacet pull fan. I don't think these were made in the 1960's.
   All my prices listed in my previous post were on Pounds sterling not USD curreny exchange rate around 1.98 USD = 1.0 GB Pounds.
   Stainless steel is not softer but harder than mild steel. It is also heavier and much more brittle.
   There are loads of books and websites with info on the Cobra so learning about them is not difficult.
   
   

   
   Dave, I will not argue with you about what is a kit and what is not, this is silly!
   Whether my car has a modern or an old fan, even if the car was an original CSX 3000 series, It would be wise to mount a modern fan on it. Most S/C cars had pull fans fitted since they are much better than the tiny push fans of the street car.
   Regarding stainless steel, I am afraid what you are saying is false, You can't say that one type is softer or harder since they are many different types of materials and you don't know what type of steel is used here. You don't know if it has been heat treated or not Etc.
   In this case the type of stainless steel used is indeed softer, this is directly from the mouth of David Kirkham!
   As far as books, yes one will learn many things from books assuming the book is correct in the first place, but books will not teach you skills which come from experience.
   
   Emmanuel  [:D]

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
Hi Emmanuel.
   What you have described above is a kit car with a factory rolling chassis.
   
   

   
   Dave,
   I checked your website, now I see where you are coming from, you are in the kit car business! Now be serious, you can't compare a Dax or any other fiberglass kit car to a Kirkham! Funny, I dont want to be rude, but this is a different ball game altogether. I am not putting down fiberglass kits, they fullfill a particular price point.
   
   Anybody interested in Dave's website, check it out:
   
   http://www.v8cobra.com
   
   Particularly interesting is the Dax kit car chassis & small block Chevy, ain't looking too AC like! [:D]:
   
   http://www.v8cobra.com/Pics/f09.jpg
   
   Emmanuel

[dave]

Hi Emmanuel.
   Not wishing to argue myself here. But we must have different opinions on what is or is not a kit car. I would class anything that is sold by the manufacturer in kit form/un assembled as a kit.
   I have just contacted a stainless steel stockholder who confirmed to me that there is NO stainless steel that is softer than mild steel. The Nickel and chromium in the stainless steel is what makes it hard. At best the main chassis of a Kirkham would be made of CDS tube and this is not as hard and brittle as stainless.
   Experience comes with practice. I have built over 100 Cobra kit cars so I'm sure I could fathom out how to build a Kirkham. How did your "Experts" gain their experience?..........Practice.
   Assmbling/building a car is not a black art, it is about applied logic and being practical. Some people have it and some don't. I'm not very good at telling people what they want to here.....Unless it's the truth. I will never be a millionair as I'm not the worlds greatest businessman, but I am pretty good at putting things together.
   I take it that you did not build /assemble your car yourself and that the person who did charged you 50K USD?

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
Hi Emmanuel.
   
   I have just contacted a stainless steel stockholder who confirmed to me that there is NO stainless steel that is softer than mild steel. The Nickel and chromium in the stainless steel is what makes it hard. At best the main chassis of a Kirkham would be made of CDS tube and this is not as hard and brittle as stainless.
   ....................................
   I take it that you did not build /assemble your car yourself and that the person who did charged you 50K USD?
   

   
   Dave, since I don't know what type of steel they use whether mild or carbon, I can't argue with you. However, the stainless is aircraft type, I know what David told me and what Cobra People who shall remain nameless have told me. The S/S cars flex too much for racing!
   
   Regarding my car, I bought it already built but unpainted. It was a disaster and I had to rebuild the whole car, whatever was not put together by Kirkham had to be redone! even the motor was horrible, the 427 block for example was cracked because some boso had overtightened the freeze bolts, it had 2 different heads, a 427 medium riser on one side and a 428 cobra jet on the other, the block being a 68 had provision for hydraulic or solids but the blocker bolt was missing, a main bearing was spun, etc. the driveshaft was too long and the guy had cut the end of the transmission seal to make it fit, the half shafts were on backward, and the list goes on! it would have been cheaper for me to have started with a rolling chassis. Despite all that, the car ran great, amazing! This is why I am warning people to be very aware when buying a custom built car that was not assembled by a pro!
   As far as building a Kirkham from scratch, the best aroung here will charge $50 to $70K.

[dave]

Bloody hell (can I say that?)
   I can see exactly where you are coming from now Emmanuel. It sounds like a nightmare.
   Was the car "Professionally" built when you bought it or amature built by someone with the enthusiasm/talent ratio the wrong way around?
   The work you have done in those pictures looks like a real credit to you.
    I would love to be able to put the time into my builds to raise the bar but the UK market for pre built Cobras (Of any variety) is limited. (We have 1/5th of the population of the US and not such a good proportion of the better climate areas) And the equivelent of $50K+  for labour would not keep me in business.
   
   I know the stuff tha I build is  very different to the Kirkham but the basic principals are the same. The engine sits in the front of a ladder chassis with a gearbox behind it. The car has 2 doors with no roll down windows. The interiors are trimmed with leather and the carpets are leather bound wool. Neither car has air con, power steering, heated seats etc.. I do not manufacture the chassis or the body, I assemble them to customer spec. My customers expect "Glass" finish paintwork but the replica side of things has been forgotten on so many things on the cars here than they are now barely even a lookalike in my book.
   However. Headlight, indicators, steering, suspension geometry, body hardware all have to be fitted and they have to be fitted correctly as does the (Dare i say) Chevy engine, Tremec gearbox, Jag suspension etc. I would by the engine from someone who has lots of experience and is well versed with the FE motors.
   At the end of the day i will build what someone orders and it that be a Dax for 30K GBP or a Kirkham for 70K GBP it doesn't make much difference as it is all work to me.(Work that I love I must admit, Just don't tell the customers or they'll all want me to do it for free.[:D])
   
   Posted - 25 January 2007 :  16:31:21
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Quote:-
   
   "Dave,
   I checked your website, now I see where you are coming from, you are in the kit car business! Now be serious, you can't compare a Dax or any other fiberglass kit car to a Kirkham! Funny, I dont want to be rude, but this is a different ball game altogether. I am not putting down fiberglass kits, they fullfill a particular price point."
   
   So please enlighten me as to what is so different. It is a car sold for self assembly. The difference being what?
   The price and what the completed vehicle represents. In either case the car has to be assembled by the customer or their agent.
   Although the Kirkham may take the term "Kit car" to another lever it is still a kit car. unfortunately the label "Kit car" conjurs up images of cars built with bubblegum and string which is all too often exactly that. Its is the fact that the Kirkham is the king of the hill in the authenticity stakes and the Dax is not and as you say it fills a price point in the market. There are kits available that are not a patch on the Dax but they still come under the same "Kit car" umbrella.
   i can see you are offended by people refering you your car as a kit car but I'm sure the owner of a genuine 60's car would be offended if at one of their gatherings you tried to pass your car off as some legendary racer.

[Emmanueld]

Dave, I bought the car from a dealer, so I did not know the history at the time, I found out later that the bozo had driven it on the beach in Florida and that it had gone back to kirkham to have it's suspensions and some body panels cleaned or replaced. They said when they had it the motor had no oil pressure and the wiring had cought fire. It also had 2 carburators which were very difficult to tune. The trans was a Tremec 3550 with a very short first gear (More appropriate for off-roading)and a 3.54 rear end. I installed a TKO 600 with a .82 fifth (interestingly, the first 4 ratios are about the same as a toploader), changed the rear end to 3.30, installed a Quaife rear diff. and a racing fuel cell. The motor was rebuilt using aluminum heads, aluminum water pump, JE forged pistons, Crower forged rod, Crower cam, the steel crank was machined and balanced and the block was prof. brazed, line bored etc. Most of gages except for 2 are originals MKIII, even the ignition key is NOS Lucas (Thanks to E-bay). Anyway, a brand new car! Tomorrow I would feel safe driving it across the US if I had to.
   You must think I have a lot of time on my hands, unfortunately, I am home sick with a cold so I have a lot of time on my hands.
   
   Regards,
   
   Emmanuel

[Emmanueld]

Dave, I did not mean to be offensive, the various "kit Car" companies have done a lot for the Cobra, they also give access to the car at a lesser price point. Your cars look nice and seem to be built with a lot of care. I just make the difference between Kirkham and other custom built cars or kit cars if you prefer. To me Kirkham, does a lot to preserve the AC make, It is the only company that sells just about any part to restore an original car. I have an AC Frua and I can find most chassis parts from Kirkham and they fit. They also make small block cars, chassis and chassis parts as well. To me they do more to help AC than the new AC Company (we will see how long it lasts). Sure they are many suppliers of AC bits, some of dubious quality some good. For example, I have yet to find a good set of AC pedals for example, all the one I have seen are horrible and don't look original. The Kirkham pedals, however beautifull have a K instead of AC on them. They are also starting to branch out and build Hot-Rods on AC coil over chassis and I hope they will stay in business for a long time to keep a supply of good AC parts.
   
   You said: "I'm sure the owner of a genuine 60's car would be offended if at one of their gatherings you tried to pass your car off as some legendary racer." Dave, I am not trying to pass my car as an original (although it would be amusing to see if they could make the difference), I know a few original Cobra owners and most of them own or have owned Kirkhams. [:)]
   
   
   Emmanuel

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
Hi Emmanuel.
   What you have described above is a kit car with a factory rolling chassis.
   
   

   
   Dave,
   I checked your website, now I see where you are coming from, you are in the kit car business! Now be serious, you can't compare a Dax or any other fiberglass kit car to a Kirkham! Funny, I dont want to be rude, but this is a different ball game altogether. I am not putting down fiberglass kits, they fullfill a particular price point.
   
   Anybody interested in Dave's website, check it out:
   
   http://www.v8cobra.com
   
   Particularly interesting is the Dax kit car chassis & small block Chevy, ain't looking too AC like! [:D]:
   
   http://www.v8cobra.com/Pics/f09.jpg
   
   Emmanuel
   
   

   
   A Kirkham cannot be bought as a fully completed car in the US, therefore by definition it is a 'Kit Car' or 'Component Car'. Undoubtedly a very very high quality kit car, but a kit car nevertheless. Unlike an AC MkIV which was a fully certified production car.
   
   As for Dave's website, it's very impressive. I would buy one of his cars on the basis of his pictures.

[dave]

quote:Originally posted by Chafford
   As for Dave's website, it's very impressive. I would buy one of his cars on the basis of his pictures.
   

   
   Hi Chafford.
   Cheque's in the post.[:X] Or should i say "Show me the money"? Whatever thanks anyway.[;)]