Definition of 'Continuation'

[Chafford]

Deleted

[aaron]

Have we not just had a similar thread here ? http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1939
   
   Are you just trying to increase your posts on here ??

[ANF289]

quote:Originally posted by Chafford
   1) Does the ACOC have a definition of what a 'Continuation' car is - possibly 'a car, body/chassis or numbered chassis produced by AC, Autokraft or AC Heritage after the 1960s that (i) replicates as far as legally possible a 1950s/1960s Ace or 1960s Cobra/289 Sports (ii) is not a MKIV, MK V or MKVI and (iii) does not have/ is not claimed to have, a chassis number issued by AC in the 1950s or 1960s?'
   
   2) Is there a definitive list of all continuation 'Cobras' produced by AC / AC Heritage since the 1960s?
   
   

Sorry, but I can't help but cringe when I see the Mk IV lumped in with the Mk V and Mk VI.  Anyway, are the "continuation" cars really that distinct from the Mk IV or simply a variation of it?  Did the continuation cars return to the 60's chassis dimensions or were they built with a Mk IV chassis (i.e., wider rear track)?  The answer may determine whether a new registry would be warranted.

[rstainer]

Does the ACOC have a definition of a continuation car? No, but this is from a 2001 ACtion article that categorised all the 50,000+ cobras constructed worldwide:
   
   "Continuation cars are vehicles built to similar specification to Thames Ditton cobras. Built in volume from the 80s (firstly by Autokraft), most have improvements to the original design to increase reliability, enhance comfort, simplify manufacture and meet more stringent regulatory needs. One can debate the de-minimis definition but I suggest the following:

The external appearance of a cobra

A tubular ladder chassis

A V8 engine.

   
   Continuation cars, in economy-dependant annual volumes, continue to be built by several constructors including:

AC (in its current incarnation)

Shelby American

Kirkham

Superformance."

[nikbj68]

I know it`s venturing onto tricky ground, but can Kirkham & Superformance really build 'continuation' cars, as they aren`t continuing production, they merely started production of vehicles similar to an original spec?
   To be a continuation Cobra should they not bear a chassis number later in the sequence issued by AC Cars in period?
   If we get really picky, Shelby can`t either, as they never built a car* (or assigned a chassis number) in period!
   
   AS I said, tricky ground. The SAAC have CSX4*** & CSX7*** registries, but do they have any place in an ACOC register? Or Kirkhams, no matter how close to correct they may be?
   The existing ACOC Cobra registry does have 'Replica Coil Spring' & 'Replica Leaf Spring' sections into which many later vehicles, some with AC 'DNA', some not, are recorded.
   OK, I`ve lit the blue touch-paper... I will now retire to a safe distance!
   
   *OK, I know. They built the Daytonas and the 'Fliptop', but onto AC-supplied chassis`. [;)]

[ANF289]

quote:Originally posted by nikbj68
   
To be a continuation Cobra should they not bear a chassis number later in the sequence issued by AC Cars in period?

   Seems reasonable.  However, the Mk IV was first referred to as a "continuation" cobra, and Brian Angliss and AC certainly implied it by following the Mk I, II & III monikers with a Mk IV.   "Mk III continuation" cobra may help clarify this situation.  But certainly one would think that such a registry should be limited to AC-associated cars.

[rstainer]

Nick,
   
   Two points.
   
   Firstly, from the  'classification' or 'categorisation' point of view it is necessary to distinguish between (a)the technical characteristics of a vehicle, (b) the manufacturer of the vehicle and (c) the brand of the vehicle. Any other approach becomes very complicated. Any classification system needs, for example, to deal with the 50,000+ cobras unambiguously.
   
   Secondly, the Thames Ditton Cobra Register does not include replicas. The Appendix replica list is to avoid confusion with period ACs.
   
   The Appendix lists all known Thames Ditton cobra replicas in Europe. A replica is defined as a car:
   

not built by AC in Thames Ditton

not built in period

which is held to be a period cobra

has the approximate specification of a Thames Ditton Cobra

has an AC or AC-like car number.

   
   RS

[nikbj68]

Robin, we are agreed on the 2 points you make. I was (clumsily, perhaps) highlighting the fact that Continuations are not catered for in the ACOC register but some of the cars some classify as continuations(rather than the Frua/Ace conversions some are) are in the sections called 'Replica Leaf Spring' & 'Replica Coil Spring'.

[aaron]

" Continuation cars, in economy-dependant annual volumes, continue to be built by several constructors including:
   Shelby American ,Kirkham ,Superformance"
   
   Are these cars not considered replicas ? Does Shelby still get the chassis and aluminium bodyshells from Kirkham ?
   
   Nick,dont forget the CSX6000 & 8000 series cars built by Shelby,
   
   He must still be using all those left over chassis he found in a field years ago to build his cars,allowing him to call the cars "continuation" cars !!

[rstainer]

The Club would welcome any volunteers to act as registrar for more recent AC vehicles. Volunteers need to:

Have substantial knowledge of the vehicle type

Have no potential conflict of interest

Be a Club member

Maintain the Register in accordance with principles (vehicle definition, categorisation etc) agreed with the Council.

   
   Until we have such a volunteer (who should contact a Council member) it may be better to put the topic of further registers into abeyance .

[Gus Meyjes]

What constitutes of a conflict of interest?
   
   Would any of the current registrars be willing to contact me regarding the time commitment? I arguably am a lot younger than most members, run a company and have young children, (in other words I do not have gaggles of time on my hands)
   But I would not at all mind to do my part and act as a registrar.
   "Heritage Cars registry" anyone?
   
   Gus

[rstainer]

Gus,
   
   A conflict would arise if a registrar has a business interest in the type of vehicle in question.
   
   The principal call on my time as registrar is the examination of vehicle documentation and physical inspection attendance at dealer and owner premises. Close liaison with my US SAAC counterpart also takes time.
   
   Most of the vehicles in question are in Europe, principally in the UK; further, existing SAAC contacts can deal with all continuation cobra issues that require US physical inspection. A UK presence is therefore an advantage. Some legal grounding and the ability to attend register entry appeals at Council meetings also helps.
   
   RS

[Gus Meyjes]

Robin,
   
   I do not see areal issue with this for me at this point. Although I am state side, the world has become a lot smaller due to the internet and I would love to have a reason to visit one of the ACOC functions from time to time and kill a couple birds with one stone!
   
   I certainly am knowledgeable on the cars, and what I do not know, I can learn or research. I own about every publication on the topic, including the SAAC registries.
   
   I will contact ACOC Council and propose to take on the task.
   
   Gus

[aaron]

quote:Originally posted by Chafford
   

   An amusing take on 'original' 'continuation' and 'replica' [B)]
   
   http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6977111/real-or-replica
   
   
   

   
   Mark, you need to get out more.

[Alan Faulkner-Stevens]

I read with great interest various peoples view about what constitutes a Continuation car and that the AC should note what happens to these cars. Well the Club does note these matters, i keep a basic log of the cars and what happens to them. Not as detailed as my MkIV Cobra information but enough. The hows/wherefores and whys of the registration of these vehicles is between manufacturer/owner and the DVLA. If a car as presented to the DVLA meets their criteria for period registration, then they will issue a number plate. I have worked with the authorities during the registration of many vehicles and i know through direct experience. It really does not matter what registration a car carries because ultimately the cars chassis number is well known and generally a true history of that cars contruction is known to the people who probably really need to know. If a car is advertised as one thing and detailed subsequent investigation proves the cars information to be incorrect then the sale vehicle can be returned to the seller.I note the case last year of the vintage Bentley sold then the subject of a court case upon investigation of its stated selling details. Buyer beware is always the watch word, in other words, do not always believe what you read about something.
   Alan Faulkner-Stevens