'Cobra' 289 Mk III AE 1138 YXN 506

[jrlucke]

The Bonhams listing indicates "This car started life in 1960 as a standard AC Ace Bristol" but also indicates the car has an "AE" ID number.  After that I'd question the accuracy of the rest of the info.
   
   The listing also indicates that while the suspension components were provided by AC the suspension mods and framework were not done by AC and so it really does not have a Mk III chassis, just various bits and pieces with the rear suspension modified as necessary to get the handling characteristics they desired.
   
   In addition IMO the front flares make the car a pretty ugly modified Ace. Not nearly as pretty as a true Mk III.
   
   John

[A-Snake]

quote:Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
   

   A Snake.
   
   Cobra seats have a curved back rest where as Ace Seats have a flat back.  Not sure but the side support could be different and the number of pleates in the Seat Swab and  Back could differ.
   Refer to Original AC Ace  &  Cobra by Rinsey Mills
   
   I believe you will find most  Cobra Copies ( Fakes / replicas / Continuations .. What Ever !! ) fit modern Cobra style seats as they are readily available and far  cheaper than buying repro seat frames and having them correctly upholstered.
   
   Keith
   

   
   Thank Keith, but it was Emmanueld that had the question on seats, not I [;)]
   However to add to your reply, not all Aces had flat back seats. Some of the very late cars were delivered with the same seats used in 289 Cobras. There were Aces being delivered even after 90 or so Cobras had been delivered to SAI.

[Flyinghorse]

Bonhams estimate is ACE money

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Flyinghorse
   
Bonhams estimate is ACE money
   

   
   Back in 2006
   
   

quote:Originally posted by TLegate
   
   Spent today watching an AC Ace being built into a Cobra in ever single respect - it is still, and will always be, a 'modified AC Ace' as that was it was originally. Might be a 'Cobra' in every single detail, but when it comes to selling time (the crunch) it is what it is - a modified Ace.

   
   Given the current high prices for Aces, I can't see that it makes any financial sense to rebuild an Ace as a Cobra. Personally, if I were in the market for such a car I'd spend my money on an AC Heritage built new Cobra rather than on a rebuilt Ace. Less explaining to do and an additional AC would be created as a result.

[A-Snake]

quote:Originally posted by Chafford
   
   
   Personally, if I were in the market for such a car I'd spend my money on an AC Heritage built new 289 Roadster or a AC 427 Cobra rather than on a rebuilt Ace. Less explaining to do and an additional AC would be created as a result.
   
   
   

   
   Fixed your post. AC Heritage can not produce a Cobra [;)]

[TLegate]

Did it occur to you that 'financial sense' might not be a part of the decision? Clearly not.....

[jrlucke]

Keep in mind when this car was modified. The AC engine broke and was replaced by a Triumph 2500 in 1965 and then wrecked and converted to a Cobra in 1969.
   
   A friend purchased a wrecked but running and drivable Ace Bristol in 1965 for $700. (Very good condition other than there were NO straight body panels!) Another $300 repaired the body.
   
   I purchased RS5024 in 1973 or so for $1,800 US and sold it a couple years later for $2,000.
   
   I have a suspicion that the reason RS5024 has not surfaced is that given the cost $4,000 vs. $10,000 it was modified into a replication of a Cobra (no body work required other than small fender flares). For $5,000 you had for all intensive purposes a leaf spring early Cobra.

[Flyinghorse]

I also note that the car in question did not sell in 2006(at Bonhams),and other Aces from a quick check of "motorbase",shows 2 Aces in 2006/7 sold for £72k,and £115k at auction. I dont think Cobra's were changing hands then for Bonhams suggested price range-likley double.
   A Mk2 again from motorbase sold for circa £240k in 2006
   What is facinating about the Bonhams listing is what people do to their cars after incidents,especially when a model or its sucessor is still in production.Another interesting points of this thread to me and likley should be on the ACE/ACECA site,was the original engine breakage -I thought it was a Bristol engine (As per the Bonhams listing) and thought the Bristol bottom ends quite reliable,so had a interest in how it "broke".It appears that the chap then went on to break the Triumph engine as well....
   That in itself might be good reason to go V8 powered.
   
   Financial sense and cars as  Trevor points out dont work,unless you are lucky.Enthusiasts dont always make the right decisions for their cars at the time. What might have seemed sensible in the 70's is now frowned on.

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Flyinghorse
   
I also note that the car in question did not sell in 2006(at Bonhams),and other Aces from a quick check of "motorbase",shows 2 Aces in 2006/7 sold for £72k,and £115k at auction. I dont think Cobra's were changing hands then for Bonhams suggested price range-likley double.
   A Mk2 again from motorbase sold for circa £240k in 2006
   What is facinating about the Bonhams listing is what people do to their cars after incidents,especially when a model or its sucessor is still in production.Another interesting points of this thread to me and likley should be on the ACE/ACECA site,was the original engine breakage -I thought it was a Bristol engine (As per the Bonhams listing) and thought the Bristol bottom ends quite reliable,so had a interest in how it "broke".It appears that the chap then went on to break the Triumph engine as well....
   That in itself might be good reason to go V8 powered.
   
   Financial sense and cars as  Trevor points out dont work,unless you are lucky.Enthusiasts dont always make the right decisions for their cars at the time. What might have seemed sensible in the 70's is now frowned on.
   

   
   Agreed this would be better on the Ace site.
   
   The point you and others have made about decisions taken in the 60s and 70s is a good one. However given the Ace's value and rarity today, I just can't fathom why someone would want to destroy an original car to create a replica of something else. Sticking an Ace chassis number on a Kirkham merely invites ridicule, and papers for historic racing don't depend on a historic chassis number.
   
   Anyway there's no accounting for taste. Let's hope a 2.6 isn't being used as a basis for this new creation![V]

[Flyinghorse]

The said vehicle under discussion is for sale here for £135k:
   http://dealerservices.autotrader.co.uk/281674/used-cars.htm  Brooklands Exeter.
   States here
   
   " Finished in Guardsman Blue with Black Leather and originally sold by the AC factory as an AC Ace with the 6 cylinder AC Engine"
   
   not Bristol engine (unlike Bonhams listing in 2006)

[nikbj68]

I had a very nice chat with Steven Walls from Brooklands of Exeter not long after the AceBra was consigned to them back in March, to suggest some amendments to their description, which at the time I think had little or no reference to it`s Ace origins. In conjunction with the Motorbase listing(supplied by an ACOC 'cobraexpert' within minutes of my call) he was happy to amend. As far as I know, the AC is on a commission sale basis.

[Chafford]

Makes an interesting comparison with Hexagon's genuine LHD 289 Sports on sale at £399,000
   
   http://www.hexagonclassics.com/car_sales/AC-Cobra-289-MK111/3286.htm

[jrlucke]

$200,000 */- for this car is probably about right considering that AC Bristols have been selling for mid to high $200,000 recently.
   
   The 1968 COX car at Hexigon (for $620,000 US)sounds a little high considering that true CSX 289 Cobras have been going for $500-700,000 US at auction recently.
   
   It looks to me that modifying a desirable car causes a 20-30% reduction in value (if not more). But at the end of the day it's all dependent on what buyers are will to pay if they find something desirable.

[aex125]

[/quote]
   
   
   The point you and others have made about decisions taken in the 60s and 70s is a good one. However given the Ace's value and rarity today, I just can't fathom why someone would want to destroy an original car to create a replica of something else. Sticking an Ace chassis number on a Kirkham merely invites ridicule, and papers for historic racing don't depend on a historic chassis number.
   
   Anyway there's no accounting for taste. Let's hope a 2.6 isn't being used as a basis for this new creation![V]
   
   
   [/quote]
   
   In many cases, an original car may not be "destroyed" as mods have occurred over many years that have taken the car to a completely different configuration. A case in point is AEX1078 which currently sits as a chassis that had a V8 installed and suffered from significant other changes over its life For <$3k, I can have another V8 power train, or can go back to original (with different AC engine) which will likely set me back on the high side of $20K. Which makes financial sense? If I want to drive and enjoy my car in the short term, going with a V8 makes sense. If I want to go for resale value, then finding an AC engine would make more sense. The bottom line is, it all depends on what an owner's desire is, not what others think that drive what a person does with their car.
   For the record, I agree that modifying a car that is still original would be a sacrilege, but I believe that is no longer the norm except for some 428 cars.
   On the related note of using an Ace Chassis number on a Kirkham, there are some reasons that might be done. In California, the state makes it very difficult to register replica cars and so people look for ways to get there cars registered. In the case of the Kirkham, the person may be doing this so he can drive his car and has no desire to go racing.
   
   Jay

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by jrlucke
   
$200,000 */- for this car is probably about right considering that AC Bristols have been selling for mid to high $200,000 recently.
   
   The 1968 COX car at Hexigon (for $620,000 US)sounds a little high considering that true CSX 289 Cobras have been going for $500-700,000 US at auction recently.
   
   It looks to me that modifying a desirable car causes a 20-30% reduction in value (if not more). But at the end of the day it's all dependent on what buyers are will to pay if they find something desirable.
   

   
   I doubt if the UK market differentiates between 'CSX', 'COB' and 'COX' chassis for Thames Ditton produced '60s Cobras. The price for the Hexagon car may reflect the fact that it's one of the rare coil spring MKIII 289 Sports and one which hasn't been converted to a 427.