New AC Website and Mk VI models

[Chafford]

Deleted

[SB7019]

Based on the photos on their site it still looks to me like a very expensive way to buy a (no doubt very well built ) Dax.   The body (including droopy rear, exposed boot hinges and chrome grommets to the bumpers) and interior (central instruments etc) are curiously similar to Dax's.   The photo in this thread  looks as if some improvements in shape have been made (no sign of hinges and rear looks more "perky') so maybe they can't be bothered to shoot any new ones for the brochure?  Having said all this,  I am sure all MkIV etc. owners who are interested in the value of their vehicles should be happy if "AC"  can successfully sell these at the asking price.

[terry3000me]

With reference to Dax, I can 100% say the Mk VI shown at Geneva this year has NO Dax connections. Please read my review in the April ACtion.
   Terry

[SB7019]

Terry.
   
   That could in part  be because the vehicle in your feature ( IV or VI?)has a number of differences to the one on the AC website.  The body and interior of the vehicle on the AC site show remarkable detail similarities to a Dax.  The only difference I can perceive is that the current  Dax has a much wider bonnet air scoop.  The Geneva show car has ironed out some of those differences ( and interestingly has a wider scoop - though not as wide as the Dax ) but a large number of detailed similarities (eg the shape of the inside upper edge of the passenger door ) remain.   I am sure you are correct that there is no commercial connection between the two companies - but would be very interested to find out where the body moulds on the AC site's featured car emanated from.   Having had a chance to study the earlier version at the 2009 Brooklands Jubilee and to photograph it during the Octane session a few days later and also having previously spent some time studying The Dax at their factory I struggle to find any difference in the shapes.     BTW  - it does seem that everyone who hs driven the car loves it - I have some shots of Octane's Keith Adams driving around the Mercedes Benz World track that clearly prove this from the expression on his face.   Still struggle to upload pics onto this site so will send them to you by e mail

[terry3000me]

Thank you Peter for the photo of Keith.
   If you look at the image that 'Chafford' has posted on 03 July in the background you can see the chassis of the Mk VI.
   I seem to recall that the body moulds are being completed at the factory in Germany.
   Terry

[Emmanueld]

Looks like a nice car, what is the source for the power train? There is one thing I don't understand, why do they keep on making "Cobra replicas" ? AC should make a completely new and modern  car, Lotus did it, Morgan did it. This car no matter how nice will always be a Cobra replica in people' s minds. Just look at the comments above comparing it to a Dax.  Look at the Elise,, how popular it is, it's a Lotus, yet it has nothing to do with past Lotuses! The Cobra has had it's time, the 427 is not even the best looking one, most prefer the 289 for looks. My point is AC is not only about the Tojeiro design, there were other cars before and after. Mgmt at Thames Ditton knew that and came up with the 428 and then with 3000ME which was a radical departure.  Even Morgan has evolved, granted it took a long while but the Aero 8 is a complete departure from the traditional Morgan. I think a new car with some traditional AC design clues, could be a hit and put AC bact on the map!
   
   Emmanuel[:)]

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld...Looks like a nice car, what is the source for the power train?...AC should make a completely new and modern car...Just look at the comments above comparing it to a Dax...Emmanuel[:)]

   The 2 engine variants offered are Chevrolet Corvette LS6, and despite Terry`s 100% assurance that there is no Dax connection, that is exactly what Jurgen Mohr began building many years ago, and his company have refined the design to make a very well engineered vehicle, with the body shape having been revised to make it less 'Dax-like' and more MkIII Cobra, although I haven`t seen the latest version.
   I was there at Brooklands too, and can verify Peter`s comments above about the Octane Ed`s delight at the phenomenal acceleration of the MkVI.

[SB7019]

Terry.
   
   Looks to me like the vehicle featured on the website has a Dax based body and the Geneva car has been moulded off something more like a proper AC.  I was once told that the Dax acquired its rather droopy shape after the mould they took of a genuine car many moons ago started to sag after it was formed.
   
   I have no doubt that what is underneath is different ( though Dax have had 3 variations, Base, Supertube and De Dion) - which has probably helped the rave reviews.  Interestingly, the rear bumper position on the Geneva car looks as if it has not been raised from the height it had in drooped form and as a result is set way too low on the body.  Not sure if the car needs to meet legal regulations on bumper height but am sure that if it this is the case it would not do so.   Has the appearance of something attached to the going away car at a wedding.
   
   Bearing in mind the significant improvements (excepting the bumper position)  in looks and detailing ( perky butt, no exposed hinges, better door fit, proper knock offs,etc) I am surprised that they have not bothered to revise the brochure photos.  Maybe I have worked too long for vehicle manufacturers where the one of the ultimate sins  ( and there are many) is to feature old spec cars in your current marketing materials?

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by SB7019...Dax have had 3 variations, Base, Supertube and De Dion)...

When I spoke to Jurgen Mohr at Brooklands, He told me the MkVI is a development of the Supertube chassis but they no longer use Jaguar differential & now make their own wishbones & uprights. [:D]

[Emmanueld]

I hope the car is not based on the Dax chassis as it is such an inferior design to the original Cobra MKIII design. DeDion rear is better than a solid axle but still not as good as a proper IRS, and the chassis is wimpy. Too bad that AC and Carroll Shelby did not get together a few years back when he started producing his Oldsmobile Aurora powered Shelby Series 1, as that was a proper car with an aluminum honeycomb  monocoque. With a little development,  It would have made an awesome AC.
   
   http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/00q4/shelby_series_1-road_test
   
   Emmanuel[:)]

[SB7019]

Message Preview
   Nick and Emmanuel
   
   If the chassis is based on the Dax Supertube then it should be a very good unit.
   
   The original Dax chassis was certainly not renowned for it's rigidity and back in the 90's they were being hit in the market by the much more effective Adrian Reynard designed Ram chassis. As a result they brought out the Supertube. They may have been particularly piqued as Adrian Cocking, the owner of RAM ( or LR Roadsters), was an ex employee of Dax. It is assumed that he also made a (droopy) mould of a Dax body - as if anyone would do such a thing! However the Supertube did not sell well and was dropped for the following reasons:- a) it was much more expensive than the standard one, b) it was not easy to add and remove the body without factory intervention - which is not an attractive proposition to kit car builders, c) Ram went out of business thus removing the competitive threat.
   
   I now have a confession to make which may mean that I am exiled from the Club?. Back in the last century I did own a factory built Ram ( the shame of it!) and am of the view that it's chassis was as good as (dare I say it, maybe even better than) the original MkIII and hence MkIV etc. This is not surprising bearing in mind the pedigree of it's designer who made good use of a substantial and well triangulated backbone as opposed to the flat ladder we all know and love.
   
   I believe (because the Dax guys told me - BTW they are very nice and very helpful people and have survived for a remarkably long time in a notoriously fragile business sector) that the De Dion rear end was introduced to aid traction off the line as well as improved handling. They calculated that however much power went into the engine ( and many people run over 500bhp in their kits) acceleration could not exceed a certain limit with the Jag rear axle. This was evidenced by an examination of the black rubber on the road after a fast start which showed an ever decreasing width as rearward weight transfer created massive camber and hence reduced the tyres contact patch. Would be interesting to see if the rear axle design of the MkVI has overcome this? I have photos of the "number 11" tyre tracks taken after Steve Gray demonstrated the acceleration potential of one of his 427 MkIII's that show full width rubber all the way. This suggests that the Ford computer did a better job in designing the geometry in the mid 60's than Jaguar did in the late 50's.
   
   I suspect that the difference lies in the use of a proper wishbone rather than the drive shaft as the upper link is the cause of this - though doubtless Sir William liked the cost saving aspects of his design. I know from deep personal experience that Ford also likes to save money - but different rules applied to anything that related to their mid 60's dominance of virtually all types of motor racing.
   
   Henry II loved all forms of racing ( as does his son- Edsel II - who I had the great pleasure of working for for many years) and was a genuine car guy. I still blame Edsel for my buying a Ram as I got the bug after we were both driven round a track by his friend Bob Bondurant in a Superformance "replicant" that Bob was an agent for in the US. Even the fact that the passenger door flew open during hard right handers did not put me off! Father and son's joint enthusiasm led to Ford's purchase of AC - but that is another story entirely.

[Mark IV]

I would argue the point that "Henry II loved racing"...he admitted that he was unfamilar with most motorsports and relied heavily on outside advice as regards racing. Walter Hayes could argueably be the "father" of all Ford racing involvement post 1960.
   
   EBF II is a fan. In fact, I have the original presentation (script and slides) that Edsel gave to the FoMoCo Board and the Dealer Council that paved the way for Brian Angliss to gain Ford's help in certifing the MK IV.
   
   I saw Bob Bondurant last weekend and I can picture him laughing heartily when the door opened......

[SB7019]

MkIV.  I wouldn't argue the point  - maybe he just loved the positive effect  it had on the business.  "  Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday " was a Detroit mantra ( not sure that this is still the case? ) for a very long time.  It is a great shame that Henry II's official biography never saw the light of day as it may have given some clues.  It's author was given huge access on the proviso that it would not be published until at least a year after Henry's demise.  He was looking forward to healthy book sales - if only through revealing the other side of the Iacocca story.   Maybe it will emerge one day as it should be a good read.
   
   I agree on Walter Hayes' influence. Motor racing would have been a much less interesting  place if the family had not put such faith in his immaculate judgment.

[terry3000me]

Good question Mark, let me see what I can find out during this coming week. Are you attending the National Day on 21st, if so we meet and have a chat?
   
   Terry

[dave]

quote:Originally posted by SB7019
   

   I believe (because the Dax guys told me - BTW they are very nice and very helpful people and have survived for a remarkably long time in a notoriously fragile business sector) that the De Dion rear end was introduced to aid traction off the line as well as improved handling. They calculated that however much power went into the engine ( and many people run over 500bhp in their kits) acceleration could not exceed a certain limit with the Jag rear axle. This was evidenced by an examination of the black rubber on the road after a fast start which showed an ever decreasing width as rearward weight transfer created massive camber and hence reduced the tyres contact patch. Would be interesting to see if the rear axle design of the MkVI has overcome this? I have photos of the "number 11" tyre tracks taken after Steve Gray demonstrated the acceleration potential of one of his 427 MkIII's that show full width rubber all the way. This suggests that the Ford computer did a better job in designing the geometry in the mid 60's than Jaguar did in the late 50's.
   
   

   
   Hello guys (Long time to post)
   Another thing to bear in mind in the above is that with the current trend towards larger diamiter wheels and lower and lower profile tyres the camber gain from using an IRS becomes more and more pronounced.
    15" "balloon" tyres have very forgiving sidewalls whereas 18" 35 profile 295s have very little give. They are great on track for more precision driving and offer better straight line traction on the right type of axle assy. but with a loaded IRS this advantage deminishes rapidly.