AC Mk V for Sale

[MkIV Lux]

... I read the word "Evolution" ....  ok let me have a trial on that...
   
   - 289 / Mk III Cobra (coil sprung)
   - Mk IV Cobra: built essentially on the same basis as the coil sprung 289 (chassis dimensions, structure, suspension layout, body, base engine & gearbox, differential, somewhat modernized, aluminium body, dash upgrade ...)
   - Superblower: as per Mk IV / engine upgrade, different dash
   - CRS: as per Mk IV chassis layout, slightly modified, dash upgrade, carbon fibre bodied
   - 212: as per CRS, Lotus engined, slighly modified body (indicator and rear lights basis)
   - Mk V: as per CRS, latest body design as per 212, different body materials
   
   Up to here, I reckon the evolution along the initial 289 coil sprung chassis design.
   
   - Mk VI: all in all totally different car (dimensions, chassis structure, layout, suspension, body shape & materials, dash, engine, gearbox, differential) having existed in the replica market before it has been badged AC.
   
   If in parallel, an expert on the matter would now state where the cars were built, who owned the premises, the engineering, the tools, who paid the men that manufactured these cars => up to and including the Mk V, beering in mind the Angliss story starting off from the other end, one can answer those questions by "AC".
   
   As of the Mk VI, so far only the badge is "AC".

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by MkIV Lux
   
... I read the word "Evolution" ....  ok let me have a trial on that...
   
   - 289 / Mk III Cobra (coil sprung)
   - Mk IV Cobra: built essentially on the same basis as the coil sprung 289 (chassis dimensions, structure, suspension layout, body, base engine & gearbox, differential, somewhat modernized, aluminium body, dash upgrade ...)
   - Superblower: as per Mk IV / engine upgrade, different dash
   - CRS: as per Mk IV chassis layout, slightly modified, dash upgrade, carbon fibre bodied
   - 212: as per CRS, Lotus engined, slighly modified body (indicator and rear lights basis)
   - Mk V: as per CRS, latest body design as per 212, different body materials
   
   Up to here, I reckon the evolution along the initial 289 coil sprung chassis design.
   
   - Mk VI: all in all totally different car (dimensions, chassis structure, layout, suspension, body shape & materials, dash, engine, gearbox, differential) having existed in the replica market before it has been badged AC.
   
   If in parallel, an expert on the matter would now state where the cars were built, who owned the premises, the engineering, the tools, who paid the men that manufactured these cars => up to and including the Mk V, beering in mind the Angliss story starting off from the other end, one can answer those questions by "AC".
   
   As of the Mk VI, so far only the badge is "AC".
   
   

   
   The shape and body materials (either GRP with aluminium coating or carbon fibre) of the production Mk VI are specific to that car.
   
   Still a mystery where this car is on sale in the UK though. AC haven't responded to my emails.

[Alan Faulkner-Stevens]

Gentlemen, having the read the latest batch of comments about what constitutes a real AC, or not as the case may be, here is my ten pence worth. Firstly, however, a comment posted stated the CRS has little in common with the early cars, well what the bloody hell do you know? Do you own such a car? Have you worked on one? As the owner of such a vehicle, someone who has worked on early Cobras and has completed total nut and bolt rebuilds on MkIV cars, there IS a direct link, blood line, what ever you wish to call it, between the very first cars and the very last English built cars. Suspension/chassis construction/engine type/configuration/body shape, its all there from early to late and they were all built in the UK.
   When the first brand new MkV cars turned up at Gerry Hawkridges workshop to have his team try to turn them into a saleable/safe/presentable car i raised the question of how the Club would view these toads with the Chairman. He told me the club would be keeping its interest to English built cars and thus, unless something has changed, if its not built in England it doesn't count.For the record, as an ex-Aston Martin engineer, i performed one of the Factory standard critiques on two MkV's at Gerrys premises, the cars were attrocious, badly built/finished/presented, the most shameful thing i have ever seen and i looked at a lot of vehicles in my professional capacity.
   The blood line as it has been called on this site, died with the MkV. The latest version the MkVI has no common features with any English built variant, different chassis/suspension/Chevrolet engine and until i and a couple of other people, who know, critised its very mis-formed oddly shaped front end it didn't even look like an early Cobra. The latest body shape has been greatly enhanced/improved by help from Steve Gray i believe.
   The worst part of this discussion is the owners of the AC name appear to have little care/thought to the owners club, it members and to the cars long continuously developed history. Its line of DNA, as it were, from 39 PH through to the 212 is there, because although these cars are poles apart in the way they were produced they have a common thread running thorough their construction. This link gives the owner of a modern car a direct link to the cars famous forebears, something the non-UK built cars do not have, nor will they ever.
   A final comment, the picture posted of the MkV on this thread, is someone having a joke at our expense? if the bonnet fit of that car gets any worse, you could change the engines plugs with the bonnet shut!!!!

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
   
Gentlemen, having the read the latest batch of comments about what constitutes a real AC, or not as the case may be, here is my ten pence worth. Firstly, however, a comment posted stated the CRS has little in common with the early cars, well what the bloody hell do you know? Do you own such a car? Have you worked on one? As the owner of such a vehicle, someone who has worked on early Cobras and has completed total nut and bolt rebuilds on MkIV cars, there IS a direct link, blood line, what ever you wish to call it, between the very first cars and the very last English built cars. Suspension/chassis construction/engine type/configuration/body shape, its all there from early to late and they were all built in the UK.
   When the first brand new MkV cars turned up at Gerry Hawkridges workshop to have his team try to turn them into a saleable/safe/presentable car i raised the question of how the Club would view these toads with the Chairman. He told me the club would be keeping its interest to English built cars and thus, unless something has changed, if its not built in England it doesn't count.For the record, as an ex-Aston Martin engineer, i performed one of the Factory standard critiques on two MkV's at Gerrys premises, the cars were attrocious, badly built/finished/presented, the most shameful thing i have ever seen and i looked at a lot of vehicles in my professional capacity.
   The blood line as it has been called on this site, died with the MkV. The latest version the MkVI has no common features with any English built variant, different chassis/suspension/Chevrolet engine and until i and a couple of other people, who know, critised its very mis-formed oddly shaped front end it didn't even look like an early Cobra. The latest body shape has been greatly enhanced/improved by help from Steve Gray i believe.
   The worst part of this discussion is the owners of the AC name appear to have little care/thought to the owners club, it members and to the cars long continuously developed history. Its line of DNA, as it were, from 39 PH through to the 212 is there, because although these cars are poles apart in the way they were produced they have a common thread running thorough their construction. This link gives the owner of a modern car a direct link to the cars famous forebears, something the non-UK built cars do not have, nor will they ever.
   A final comment, the picture posted of the MkV on this thread, is someone having a joke at our expense? if the bonnet fit of that car gets any worse, you could change the engines plugs with the bonnet shut!!!!
   
   

   
   
   This year's ACOC National Event Concours had sections for aluminium bodied 'Cobra Mk IV, Superblower' and composite bodied 'Cobra CRS MkIV Mk V & Mk VI'. Which means that the club, very sensibly, will accept and welcome the owners of Mk Vs and Mk VIs.

[AKL 1333]

When there is the focus on the english cars, why is there no chapter in the register for the factory produced continuation cars COB5001,COB5002,...

[Alan Faulkner-Stevens]

So, the National event had a section for the non UK built cars did it, how interesting. It appears there has been a senior change of view on the matter. Whether that is good or bad for this Club is the decision of the Council members. However, it doesn't change the true facts, the MkV has the most dreadful build quality and the MkVI has no direct link to any Cobra variant build before.
   I am one of those Club members who has direct working experience of both the early 60's build cars, the high quality MkIV build vehicles and the poorer quality later cars, although this said i understand the MkVI is getting much better, build wise. Thus, when i write upon this forum i do so from direct experience and as such find some comments from other contributors to be sadly lacking in both fact and objective view point.

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
   
So, the National event had a section for the non UK built cars did it, how interesting. It appears there has been a senior change of view on the matter. Whether that is good or bad for this Club is the decision of the Council members. However, it doesn't change the true facts, the MkV has the most dreadful build quality and the MkVI has no direct link to any Cobra variant build before.
   I am one of those Club members who has direct working experience of both the early 60's build cars, the high quality MkIV build vehicles and the poorer quality later cars, although this said i understand the MkVI is getting much better, build wise. Thus, when i write upon this forum i do so from direct experience and as such find some comments from other contributors to be sadly lacking in both fact and objective view point.
   

   
   No one would doubt your expertise, but facts are there to be interpreted and different conclusions will be made by different people. DNA from 39PH to 212 S/C - you're entitled to your opinion. Mine is that 39PH has a different chassis/ suspension, a different engine, a different dashboard, a different method of body construction etc from the 212 S/C which dilutes the 'DNA' argument. It was built in a different factory in a different time period and, arguably, by a different company from the one that built 39PH. If you want to argue bloodline, my view is that the direct bloodline of the 212 S/C goes back to 1982 and no further.
   
   However, I regard both cars as real AC Cobras - none of the 'yours isn't a TD Cobra' nonsense for me.
   
   Of course given that I don't have your direct experience, these comments may be completely lacking in both fact and objectivity, and, if they are, I would like to apologise unreservedly.
   
   

quote:Cobra CRS Owner 'My original Cobra CRS has a genuine bloodline going back to the first AC Ace. Please remove that Mk V 'toad' built by winos from the adjacent car parking space immediately.
   
   Cobra Mk VI Owner Please do not insult my original Mk VI. It was built by German craftsmen and has a dashboard signed by Carroll Shelby himself. [;)]

[Alan Faulkner-Stevens]

In response to your post, you are quite correct our view points come from different positions and experiences and will, i suspect never meet. However, i will make you a direct offer, come to my workshop and inspect in detail a late build Lightweight MkIV Cobra and i will show you how its build directly relates back to the 427 cars of the 60's, well beyond 1982 when Autokraft started. From there we can look at my CRS and i can show how the blood line is still there in that car, despite the change of body material. I can prove my view point and am prepared to stand behind all i say.

[Chafford]

I don't doubt your sincerity for a moment but my concern is that if the focus is placed too firmly on 'bloodline' and 'DNA' standards there will always be some poor owner of a car that doesn't meet those who will be on the receiving end of an unpleasant comment - e.g. the MkIV owners at the 'Haynes' event covered elsewhere on this site. Much better surely to welcome those individuals regardless of the model in question.
   
   Distance will prevent a visit anytime soon, but thank you for your kind offer. Is the late MK IV Lightweight the red car on your website that you're currently rebuilding?
   
   http://www.dragonwheelsrestorations.co.uk/concours.htm

[ANF289]

Inclusion is great, but the sad fact is that there will always be a subset of the club that will perceive their cars as more AC or more Cobra than the others.  I'm not sure about the Mk V, but Alan is correct in drawing the line at the German, plastic, cobra-vette that is labeled as an AC Mk VI.   Most would agree that there is nothing AC or cobra about it.  Really, anyone interested in buying into the legend would never seriously consider this car.  That said, it has an AC badge, so welcome it to the club.  Just don't expect it to be treated equally, because no one believes all Cobras were created equal... now do they?

[TLegate]

"All Cobras Are Equal, Except Some, That Are More Equal Than Others"
   
   Now there's a title for a book!! If only we can find some poor schmuck to write it....

[ANF289]

quote:Originally posted by TLegate
   
"All Cobras Are Equal, Except Some, That Are More Equal Than Others"
   
   Now there's a title for a book!! If only we can find some poor schmuck to write it....
   

Now is this a classic example of foreshadowing, or what?

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by ANF289
   
Inclusion is great, but the sad fact is that there will always be a subset of the club that will perceive their cars as more AC or more Cobra than the others.  I'm not sure about the Mk V, but Alan is correct in drawing the line at the German, plastic, cobra-vette that is labeled as an AC Mk VI.   Most would agree that there is nothing AC or cobra about it.  Really, anyone interested in buying into the legend would never seriously consider this car.  That said, it has an AC badge, so welcome it to the club.  Just don't expect it to be treated equally, because no one believes all Cobras were created equal... now do they?
   

   
   Lets examine that statement:  'German' - synonymous with quality and reliability 'Plastic' - Aluminium coated GRP or Carbon Fibre, the latter like a CRS - LS3/LS7/LS9 Corvette engines, the best in the business with at least 435hp and 20+ mpg. Sounds pretty appealing to me! The only problem is the price which, with options and VAT will run to £120,000! You can buy a very similar car from Gardner Douglas (with a body shape taken from a MkIV and the same Corvette engine) for half the price - or of course buy an original AC Mk IV! [:)]

[Gus Meyjes]

quote:Originally posted by TLegate
   
"All Cobras Are Equal, Except Some, That Are More Equal Than Others"
   
   Now there's a title for a book!! If only we can find some poor schmuck to write it....
   

   
   I know someone...

[ANF289]

quote:Lets examine that statement:  'German' - synonymous with quality and reliability 'Plastic' - Aluminium coated GRP or Carbon Fibre, the latter like a CRS - LS3/LS7/LS9 Corvette engines, the best in the business with at least 435hp and 20+ mpg. Sounds pretty appealing to me!

Appealing?  Obviously to some.  But does either the appeal or the car have anything to do w/ AC design or engineering?  Definitely not, unless you consider drilling holes for an AC roundel in the carbon fiber or alumitex panel an AC design and engineering effort.  [;)]