Membership fee payment

[Gus Meyjes]

Again, as a "foreigner" and never having met any of you all, I can't have a proper objective opinion on the matter, so I form mine on my impressions and on what I read as well as communications I've had with others on the forum. I suppose it's not so much the actual age of the counsil members as it is the way the counsil moves. I appreciate the last post, however it comes across to me as a defense of leaving matters they way they are (other then payment) rather than taking an open mind to other matters as well. I think Bruce Claassen's post should not be shoved under the rug as a single rogue comment. There should be absolutely no room whatsoever for any of the membership to have his kind of experience. It is in-defensible. So, I understand we all should move forward with a positive attitude, but I read between the lines that the counsil feels that everything will be just hunky-dory if we all are just happy, rather than taking this thread very seriously and being willing to accept the fact that there is a strong under current that is unhappy with the way things are done. Did you guys read Keith's post? Really? I'm assuming he is a highly respected member in the ACOC. He frequents the events, properly uses his Ace, frequently posts on the forum, is always willing to help other owners and disseminates information all the time about the cars/brand. Are you reading what is being said? Constructive criticism is a very good thing. People are upset because they care, not because they are indifferent.
   
   Gus

[DGoose]

Hi Gus,
   
   You are absolutely right in what you say and this thread has lead to much constructive criticism but also to some surprising, for me anyway, hostility towards other club members.
   
   Keith and Bruce are both highly respected within the Club but it would seem that things have been said in the past which have led to a certain degree of I'll feeling.
   
   I don't believe an open forum is the place to air opinions on individual members but I also don't believe for one moment that these comments will be ignored.
   
   David

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by shep
   
Minutes of the meeting are circulated to Council Members, but a decision was taken not to publish them on the Website as the detail can easily be misinterpreted by those who did not hear the full discussion. If anyone wishes to take Terry's invitation to add to the agenda this Thursday, this is your chance to contribute, but please be positive. Andy
   

   
   Andy, I am sorry to say but this is the type of elitist  argument always used by dictators.  TRANSPARENCY is always better, given the whole context is provided accurately with the minutes,  then members will get it right. Making minutes available to club members would go a long way towards appeasing disgruntled or disillusioned members who think the club is ruled by an old elitist clan.
   
   Incidentally, this  is also why I like living in the US versus old Europe, there is way more openness and transparency here. Andy, this is not a personal attack towards you or anyone else individually but just my personal opinion regarding information sharing by the board.
   
   Emmanuel

[SBB]

How appalling to see the comment on verbal diarrhea for agreeing with comments made by the Webmaster and adding some words of comment.
   
   This plumbs the depths of idiocy, ignorance, execrable taste, apart from the accompanying demonstration of crass illiteracy in the inability to spell  properly.
   
   Such base insults have no place in a club of any standing and are utterly disgusting from the individual concerned.
   
   As stated earlier, this sort of thing degrades the Club publicly and only serves to demonstrate that the Forum in its current form does the Club no favours.
   
   To see an example of how a forum should be run and its rules and guidelines, refer to the Bristol Owners' Club website.
   
   However it is probable that it is fortunate enough not to have members of the calibre of the sort of person who sink so low to write such revolting comments.
   
   To anyone looking in from the outside this must appear absolutely disgraceful and must have put more nails in the coffin than can be imagined. The writer should be utterly ashamed of such comments.
   
   As far as membership payments are concerned, I constructively suggest the Club's Council of Management does some research into how other clubs manage this situation and then in the light of those findings, decide what, if any, are the best changes to be made for the benefit of the ACOC and its future smooth running and success.

[C9OBY]

Apologies for my apparent absence, but I'm currently overseas with very limited access to computers etc.  Blackberry's are not the perfect tool for the forum!
   
   I want to clarify a few points, so that some of them can be positively shared at tomorrow's council meeting that I would have attended had I been in the UK.
   
   I do not believe that my comments are a minority view.  There are other points I could have raised, however, I said that initial (then sustained) resistance to paypal (or simliar) payment mechanisms from the club (plus other comments re older members views of the existence of the forum) were the tipping point, not the sole cause, of my comments. There are a lot of people who are not comfortable saying what I have said in public, but they have certainly made similar comments in private.  Ignoring them is something that the club should be advised to avoid.  This is especially relevant as a common topic at each of the last 3 AGM's that I attended spent a good few minutes bemoaning the fact that numerous members continued to delay/avoid paying their fees.  There are more reasons for this than 'method of payment' alone.
   
   I really do not believe that I am only one of 10 out of 740 members who have very strong concerns regarding the leadership of this club.  Nor do I believe that I am the sole person who's felt excluded or marginalised by actions of the club. There are a host of non-Thames Ditton car owners who have also been marginalised or made to feel uncomfortable.  I can recall two events within the last 12 months where MKIV owners were specifically EXCLUDED from attending/participating at "AC-bannered" events - this sort of behaviour should NOT be tolerated, let alone supported by publication in the ACtion magazine.
   
   Andy, you are a far better politician than I, and I really do believe that a leader in your style would do a lot more for this club than we currently see. Hence I hope that this rather popular topic (thanks for the statistics Keith!) does not get swept under the carpet or summarised into 'paypal' and 'forum' only discussion.  I have said in the past and I'll say it again, that I'm more than happy to be directly involved in the club in order to bring about change.  But at the same time, if a man is measured by the company he keeps, I would not be not be prepared to sit alongside elitist or prejudiced people who think that they can run the club for their own benefit.
   
   To clarify - I was not so upset by the anti RSA comments themselves.  I was rather more upset that on both occasions that those comments were made in public, not a single person who overheard those comments came up to me to apologise.  Hence I must assume that those comments were shared by the company I was sitting with.  Not necessarily a generalisation or club policy, but it was what I experienced nonetheless.  More concerning are the numerous times people not sitting in a Thames Ditton car are made to feel 'lesser members', either directly or subversely; you cannot describe it until you've experienced it, so nobody who's not experienced it cannot say it doesn't exist.
   
   Here's a suggestion.  Why don't council members should put themselves up for public vote, both in ACtion and on the Forum, along with a short bio on what they intend to do for/with the club?  The membership then votes, and majority rules.  All members who believe that they already have the required majority support would have nothing to fear.  (I'll let you decide whether we use the AV or 'first past the post' system ;o) ).  Andy, Bryan, David, I'm sure that your places would be assured, and I am sure that many on the forum are glad for your engagement in this discussion.
   
   As a matter of interest, how many committee members actually attend each council meeting each month?  I note David's comments regarding the cars of the mark represented, but attendance at many club events is a little different.  Furthermore, the proportion of Thames Ditton cars vs non-TD cars participants and events is again skewed to the latter, so which demographic is really supporting and publicising the club?  Voting rights should possibly be re-balanced.
   
   Age is a relative thing - there are 70's who are young at heart, and 30-somethings already preparing their resting place.  However, the issue raised in my comments is closer to those who see a car club as being an extension of the 'gentlemen's club' era, versus those of a more modern and less exclusive persuasion.  Hence it's not the age issue so much as 'what is this club trying to be, and who is it trying to attract'.
   
   Terry, you posted the following earlier: "Should any member/non member wish to have a question raised on their behalf relating to this thread please note it down before, lets say, Wednesday midnight UK time..".  I'm sorry, but this sort of request is part of the problem.  Why should a member have to specifically ask for an item to be minuted and added to the council agenda for discussion?  It appears that the council is too tied up in 'agenda protocol' and administration to properly identify and address issues.  My comment is not specifically directed at you, rather it is directed at the manner in which meetings can be stifled by 'process' and 'etiquette', rather then dealing with the issues.
   
   I've had some very supportive emails in private, but only one council member has contacted me for further discussion.  If the council would prefer that I shut up and disappear, just tell me publically on this forum and I'll do so.  But please do not suggest or infer that I am a dissident individual with an axe to grind.
   
   I really hope that the club turns the corner, but something really needs to be fixed asap in order for it to last another 62 years.  In summary, this is not about point-scoring.  It is about making a club that is inclusive and wholly focussed on moving the membership forward, with enthusiasm.  Those who are marginalised will move on/leave, but those who feel involved and listened-to will continue to pay their dues and support the club.  Club days need to be 'jolly good fun' in a 21-st century fashion, not just a park-up-and-chat-with-the-old-crew affair.  Where are the families bringing their children into the atmosphere of classic cars and period racing?  Where are the 'use-your-car', not 'polish-your-car' events?  Who does the club envisage it's leadership and owner group to be in 10/20/30/40 years time?  Enthusiasts, or investors?

[Gus Meyjes]

hands down the most well balanced posting made thus far. Take that.
   Unlike the one before that, but I thank SBB for doing so, as he so poignantly makes our point!! You could not have been clearer on what we perceive the real problem is with ACOC.
   
   Gus

[J Jones]

quote:Originally posted by Classicus
   

quote:Originally posted by SBB
   
As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership,

   I'm not a member.
   

   I don't really want to add any more wood to the fire, but as no one else has picked up on this, I'd like to mention the enormous contribution Paul (Classicus) has made over the years. As noted in the quote, he is not a member.
   
   Paul has been tracking down all the existing 428's, and started a register of these cars. He has devoted a great deal of time and energy to this task.
   
    I would like to volunteer payment of one annual subscription for him. I'll do that, when I renew my own subscription on PAYPAL. Repeat: PAYPAL!
   
   Paul describes himself as a pensioner on a limited income. He does not own an AC.
   
   While it's possible that anyone so persistent in devoting such effort might be characterized as being a little Cuckoo, He's certainly a valuable old bird who deserves recognition. (A jest, Paul. I don't think you're Cuckoo)
   
   For those of you who are unfamiliar with what he has done, please click on the link below. This would not have happened if the forum was not open to all interested parties.( I think it would be a good thing to incorporate Pauls registry into the Members area for future reference and updates)
   
   
   http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/f397875/register-amp-archive/?r=954298

[DGoose]

Perspective,
   
   We are a car club, a club for enthusiasts of the AC marque.
   
   19 club members sit on the council voluntarily and receive no expenses or perks for doing so. What we get is pleasure out of helping like minded owners to participate and interact with one another.
   
   There are many more club members not on our council who contribute their free time equally if not more so with regards to organising events, running the registers or arranging for production / acquisition of spares etc.
   
   Every organisation whether a club or a business requires an individual
   or group of individuals to make decisions, in the case of our club this role falls to a number or ordinary car enthusiasts who have sufficient passion and belief in the club to make the Monthly journey to London at there own expense.
   
   Finish.

[C9OBY]

[first quote] Posted by SBB
   
Well said.  Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
   
   ... I am of the school of thought that the forum as it currently exists does the club no favours. The club cannot use the AC logo any more because Lubinski, who is not a member, did not like what he saw written aboput him and wanted censorship of free speech.
   
   
   [second quote] Subsequently posted by SBB
   
This plumbs the depths of idiocy, ignorance, execrable taste, apart from the accompanying demonstration of crass illiteracy in the inability to spell properly.
   
   ... As stated earlier, this sort of thing degrades the Club publicly and only serves to demonstrate that the Forum in its current form does the Club no favours.
   
   ...However it is probable that it is fortunate enough not to have members of the calibre of the sort of person who sink so low to write such revolting comments.
   [/quote]
   
   
   
   
   An interesting observation, SBB.   You merely provide further evidence of the "do as I say, not as I do, I'm better than you..." approach that we're petitioning against.
   
   
   As for your comments on Keith's 'calibre', you owe him a very large apology.  He is one of the most passionate, credible and highly regarded enthusiasts in the club (and outside it) - you could learn a lot from him and the way he carries himself and the marque of the club.
   
   Lastly, please clarify whether or not you actually support the existence of the forum, because for someone who's apparently against it, your continued posts are by far and away the most offensive and least useful ones that an outsider to the club/forum would see.

[SB7019]

Steady on Bruce - you keep on using fact based arguments (cf - your wonderful mathematical analysis of the PayPal issue) to support your views.  This is not fair to those who can only use the verbosity that our wonderful English language encourages.   Is it because you is South African?

[aex125]

Earlier in the thread I thought it was stated the ACOC was looking for more members. From where I sit, a post such as this does nothing but drive people (new and old) away. It seems someone is shooting themselves in the foot and then reloading for more shots. I an guessing it is really not meant to be as mean spirited as it appears, but it is very difficult to understand the full intent when you cannot talk to a person face to face.
   On a related note, could you please refrain from using the term "cuckoos" when referring to us non-members as it is an affront to birds everywhere.  Since the goal seems to be to keep things as in the past, perhaps referring to us on this side of the pond as "Upstart Colonists" would be better. [:)]
   
   
   
   

quote:Originally posted by SBB
   
How appalling to see the comment on verbal diarrhea for agreeing with comments made by the Webmaster and adding some words of comment.
   
   This plumbs the depths of idiocy, ignorance, execrable taste, apart from the accompanying demonstration of crass illiteracy in the inability to spell  properly.
   
   Such base insults have no place in a club of any standing and are utterly disgusting from the individual concerned.
   
   As stated earlier, this sort of thing degrades the Club publicly and only serves to demonstrate that the Forum in its current form does the Club no favours.
   
   To see an example of how a forum should be run and its rules and guidelines, refer to the Bristol Owners' Club website.
   
   However it is probable that it is fortunate enough not to have members of the calibre of the sort of person who sink so low to write such revolting comments.
   
   To anyone looking in from the outside this must appear absolutely disgraceful and must have put more nails in the coffin than can be imagined. The writer should be utterly ashamed of such comments.
   
   As far as membership payments are concerned, I constructively suggest the Club's Council of Management does some research into how other clubs manage this situation and then in the light of those findings, decide what, if any, are the best changes to be made for the benefit of the ACOC and its future smooth running and success.
   

[dkp_cobra]

quote:Originally posted by C9OBY
   

   ...  I can recall two events within the last 12 months where MKIV owners were specifically EXCLUDED from attending/participating at "AC-bannered" events - this sort of behaviour should NOT be tolerated, let alone supported by publication in the ACtion magazine.
   ...
   

   
   Bruce, do mean somthing like this here: original Cobra meeting in Düsseldorf [:(]

[CRS9505]

I think he was probably refering to the "Events" calender on the homepage of this web site
   
   1 - 3 July 2011
    Snakebite - the Original Cobra Weekend
    Dusseldorf. Thames Ditton Cobras only - email for full details: 289 at gmx dot net
   
   The italics are mine but it does make me wonder about why I bought an "AC" product instead of a Hawk or Kirkham?

[nikbj68]

Wow. Where to start?
   Firstly, an apology? If my puerile & banal postings(yes, I admit it. bikinis, mickey-takes & general frivolity; guilty as charged!) have offended anyone or brought the club into disrepute, I`m sincerely sorry. [B)]
   However, I don`t believe that`s the case. Having been on this forum since it`s inception, I can say hand-on-heart that there is a good balance of information & interchange of knowledge, along with being very civilised in it`s banter (other forums I know of have separate areas for more 'extreme' humour for example). What`s the expression? "All work & no play makes Jack a dull boy".[:)]
   
   If quote "...A number of long-standing members will not touch the Forum with the proverbial bargepole, describing it as (quote) awful. Others have told me that they never look at it and never will, and imply they are proud to avoid it..." I presume they are relying on the opinion of someone else to base their opinion on...how very broad minded. [:(] Send 3 and fourpence... we`re going to a dance!
   The internet, emailing, forums, technology in general are not to everyone`s taste, but just because a few may not appreciate something, is that good enough reason to deny it to all? [:0]
   I`ve been around AC`s since I was born. I didn`t have a silver spoon in my mouth, it was a sparkplug. But I`ve never actually been a member of the club in my own right; my Dad was, through the 60`s & early 70`s during ownership of his Ace & Cobra, and is again now, now that he has a Greyhound.
   Am I a cuckoo in the nest? "I`m not worthy, I`m not worthy?!"
   
   
   Getting back on topic, The issue of electronic payments was first raised in the second ever thread on the forum in April `06:

quote:Originally posted by ME182:...I have the following 'hopefully constructive' observations...
   2. Items that can be ordered, such as membership or regalia should be via either e-commerce or paypal....Even if this has some associated cost, I'm sure these would be offset by reduced administration and additional memebers joining, as its easier to join!

quote:Originally posted by bryanm(now posting as 'administrator'): Electronic ordering of items is likely to come, but not in the immediate future...The ACOC is not the most 'electronic' of clubs but we will get there!

...And also from `06, October this time:
   

quote:Originally posted by sruzila: Is there any way to get back copies of ACtion in electronic form? How about making it a PDF and emailing it out to people (especially those of us not in the UK)...
   ...I would definately like to see older issues available as PDF (or whatever easily readable format) online. Steve

quote:Originally posted by administrator: It's been considered several times, but there are a (perhaps) surprising number of members without computer access, and email addresses change all the time.  ACtion will remain paper.

   
   The ACOC lags way behind many clubs in it`s presence at many major events, far beyond having not moved forward, they appear to have shrunk back in recent times. Wouldn`t it be great to have the club seen as a vibrant community of enthusiasts of some of the most advanced & exciting cars throughout automotive history?
   So. Where do we go from here? [?]
   Let`s see what the feedback from the Council meeting is.

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by CRS9505: I think he was probably refering to the "Events" calender on the homepage of this web site
   1 - 3 July 2011
    Snakebite - the Original Cobra Weekend
    Dusseldorf. Thames Ditton Cobras only - email for full details: 289 at gmx dot net
   The italics are mine but it does make me wonder about why I bought an "AC" product instead of a Hawk or Kirkham?

   
   Same thing as the original Cobra meeting in Düsseldorf.
   I believe that this isn`t an ACOC event, only mentioned out of interest/courtesy.
   25 original Cobras going out to play, Sounds like FUN!