Membership fee payment

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by SBB
   
Well said.  Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
   
   Other clubs such as the VSCC do not have a free for all facility on their forums and posting of comment is only open to members.
   
   I am of the school of thought that the forum as it currently exists does the club no favours. The club cannot use the AC logo any more because Lubinski, who is not a member, did not like what he saw written about him and wanted censorship of free speech.
   
   I rest my case.
   
   

The truth hurts I guess! My opinion is that the forum helps the brand, any open discussion about these cars is welcomed publicity and more specifically abroad. Do you think the average American would be willing to spend a dime on a prewar AC, a Bristol or a 428 if the Cobra never existed, I say no. Not because the cars were not good or not fun, but just because they would not have known about them, there are so few to go around. Carroll Shelby put AC on the map outside of England and so do the various forums and replica manufacturers so often criticized here.
   
   This forum is a great way to exchange ideas and tips about our cars and when these members who dislike the forum so much receive a fat check upon the sale of their car to some Yankee, they should be thankful that it exists and that it is very likely the buyer became interested and knowledgeable in AC while browsing the forum.
   
   We all have the same passion, so let's enjoy and have fun.
   
   Now it's 3 cents worth!
   
   Emmanuel [:(!]

[lyonheart84]

It's been interesting to read the various comments and replies here, as although I was a regular member of the club any years ago, I have not been for some time due to other committments in my life, although I enjoy reading some of the forum and sometimes making comments if I feel it would be useful or entertaining or indeed complimentary to other contributors.
   I was surprised to read a couple of the replies above as they were almost vitriolic in their nature ( from what I take to be club members as their intials are familiar to me ) and hopefully not representative of the majority of members. This kind of blinkered attitude would be one very good reason for me not to rejoin the club.
   I feel disappointed if my occasional writings were considered banal or puerile as I hope some of the information I have offered about Frua's from when I previously owned them may have been some use to classicus for the register updates, or indeed other AC 428 owners. I have made contact with some very pleasant people here and in America through the forum, something that I would not have been able to do through the club magazine.
   Fortunately the world is made up of people with different personalities and senses of humour, so what one person finds puerile, another may find amusing or informative.
   Regarding differences in club subscriptions between the UK and International I am sure this is largely down to the cost of posting Action and other club correspondance overseas. My American friends are probably not aware, but our UK postal charges are relatively quite high compared to many other countries, and especially for international postage. I know as I often post small packages to the USA and Far East and it costs me significantly more to post them out, than the ammount my overseas counterparts pay to send similar size packages to me here in the UK.
   Regarding electronic payments, I myself was a late starter into internet banking and Paypal but I think the club might find it very workable with no appreciable increase in costings.
   I assume the ACOC Ltd has a business account? If this is linked to a personal account at the same bank branch ( I am sure that the person that administers the club bank account can be trusted ) then internet banking can be done completely free of all charges ( we bank with Barclays both personally and with our Company accounts and I can make and receive payments from our business accounts IN THE UK free of any charges ). Conversely I have to pay a bank charge for each cheque that we pay into our company bank account so internet banking is actually cheaper for us. Of course club members should have the option to pay by cheque, debit card, credit card ( with a small commission fee ) or by electronic transfer. With regards to Paypal for anyone that uses it, when you select the 'SEND MONEY' box there are 2 tabs to choose from, the one that always comes up first thats says 'PURCHASE'. This is best avoided as the recipient is charged a commission for receiving the money. If you select the 'PERSONAL' tab and then highlight 'PERSONAL PAYMENT OWED' then there is NO CHARGE to the recipient ( even if you are paying for goods or membership as Paypal would not know this). You can of course select which currency to send the money in so overseas members would be able to select UK Pounds and will be charged a conversion fee by Paypal so the club would bear no other costs. The only charge I'm not sure about would be what Paypal charges to withdraw the funds into a bank account, as sadly I never seem to take money out of my Paypal account !!!
   Regarding international Swift payments I think that as long as the overseas sender remembers to tick the box 'PAY ALL CHARGES' and sends the money in UK currency the club should not be charged anything to receive the money.
   I'm not averse to chat about Replica Cobras and I suspect that the huge growth in the market for Cobra kits in the last 30 years has made many people worldwide more aware of genuine AC Cobras and quite probably enhanced their increase in values ( that might be good or bad depending on your point of view or whether you are an owner or non owner ). The clue to the size of membership might be in the name of the club... AC 'OWNERS' Club. Perhaps this scares off enthusiasts that are not actually owners as they feel they would not be welcome to join. I think the club is actually quite a good size considering the relative rarity of AC's compared to some other makes so perhaps too many members would make it harder to administer for the much appreciated volunteers that run the club.
   My apologies for my long ramblings here, especially if much of it is repetitive or indeed puerile.......
   Best regards
   PS Emmanuel I don't think the club would be allowed to keep your credit card details on file here due to our UK DATA storage and protection laws  !

[administrator]

Thanks for all the comments which I would describe as 'honest' rather than 'hostile'.  The wide range of opinions is clear.
   
   I will again raise the matter of electronic subs payments at the next Council meeting.

[SBB]

As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership, and sit on the sidelines carping and sniping, they will also find any excuse to take personal exception to a basic comment as has this Richard the Lion Heart charcter. Please re-read what I said before jumping up and down in non-member indignity.
   
   I said MUCH of what is written is banal and puerile. No one was singled out as Richard thinks he has been.
   
   Fortunately the majority of what is on the forum is useful and constructive.
   
   However, the Club's website is its shop window to the world of potential new members.. It should not be covered with the graffiti of girls in bikinis and moaning non-members comments about why they are either lapsed or not going to join.

[CRS9505]

Hello,
   I'm your newest member and extremely disappointed to see some of these rather extreme comments - I guess for some people it will always be "the right crowd and no crowding"........
   BUT if this Forum is getting too heavy/tedious for some of you, cash in on the Thames Ditton jobs, have a new exact "replica" racer built or buy a plastic CRS or Suprblower and  move over to the MKVI and CRS Forum,[8D] its more fun, more lively, the links and discussions are of today and by god the beer is better - no matter what you drink!
   
   (Sorry, I'll go back to the corner now)

[Gus Meyjes]

Dear Simon,
   
   Clearly most felt your comments were hostile, and personally I think your comments on your last post are unnecessarily inflammatory.
   So take some responsibility and apologize instead of back pedaling.
   
   With regards to your comments on girls on bikinis etc, I venture to say that most, if not all of the members and non members that frequently use this forum look at this as lighthearted banter.
   
   If you ever venture out on other forums, you will see that this is not an uncommon thing. I highly doubt that this is bad advertising for the club, as I'm sure that other forums are far larger with far greater participation. In other words, maybe the ACOC forum is still too stuffy, but I suppose we can disagree on that. And for the record: this thread started with the ease of payment argument. I am a member who has not submitted the last pay stub... eagerly awaiting for the club to move with the swiftness of a modern 21st century organization... I wonder when the next committee meeting is, I suppose this matter can't be settled with a few phone calls...
   
   In closing I would argue that you should come on the forum more often than 22 times and post valuable information that does not fall into your category of "puerile and banal". Maybe that will aid in tipping the balance of material quality in your favor....[:D][;)]
   
   Gus

[lyonheart84]

Dear Simon, I'm well aware of who you are and what AC's you have had and do still own and your long-standing position in the club and support you have give to it over many years ( I was a member throghout the 1980's before I moved away from Ac's due to other committments). I mm sorry if I offended you as this was not intended, but you did indeed say 'Much of what is written' which to me means almost the same as 'Majority'. I do read most of the forums as I still have an interest in AC's vintage and modern and actually I did not feel that I had been singled out, in fact I agree that sometimes some comments written are indeed irrelevant but on the whole they interest a fair number of people, both memebers and non members. I was rather hoping that my feedback in my previous comment on types of payment might be useful for the club. It is not easy to tell on the forums who are members and who are not, but most of the people I have chatted with are indeed members and I hope are not offended by my occasional presence on the forum. Regarding your comment about Lubinski it's not really for me to voice an opinion as I dont know the facts of what happened to upset him, but I do think it is out of order for the club to not be allowed to use the AC logo. As my family has been involved in the classic car trade for over 40 years I don't join clubs as I could quite reasonably substantiate joining 30 or 40 different clubs based on the range of cars we are sometimes involved with over a period of time. It's not a case of saving a few pounds and carping on the sidelines, It's just not practical to join several clubs and I would feel I was not supporting them as I would never have time to attend events. Once again I hope I did not offend as this was not my intention, but if the club wishes to expand memebership then surely they also need to listen to feedback from non-members,
   My best regards, Brett Lyons ( lyonheart84 just happens to be my e-mail address based on my surname, nothing pretentious to do with the King with a different spelling, or were you just making a banal comment LOL ). I am joking with you here Simon, I hope you appreciate the humour from my end as well

[ANF289]

quote:Originally posted by SBB
   
As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership, and sit on the sidelines carping and sniping, they will also find any excuse to take personal exception to a basic comment as has this Richard the Lion Heart charcter. Please re-read what I said before jumping up and down in non-member indignity.
   
   I said MUCH of what is written is banal and puerile. No one was singled out as Richard thinks he has been.
   
   Fortunately the majority of what is on the forum is useful and constructive.
   
   However, the Club's website is its shop window to the world of potential new members.. It should not be covered with the graffiti of girls in bikinis and moaning non-members comments about why they are either lapsed or not going to join.
   

   Me thinks something stinks in yonder ACOC clubhouse... and it can't be the non-member cuckoos!
   
   ...and lyonheart84, you are obviously a gentlemen and a scholar, and there are few of us left! [:D]
   
   Again, let's focus on the topic, electronic bill pay for membership subscription.  It really is a no-brainer, at least for those with functioning synapses. [;)]

[lyonheart84]

Thank you for your kind words ANF289

[J Jones]

Clifford - are you serious about your offer to receive subscription payments via PayPal?
   
   If so, perhaps those of us watching this debate should demonstrate what might be achieved by using this simple, time and cost-effective way of keeping current with dues.
   
   It is not laziness, or reluctance to Pay dues. It is not a matter of the 60 GBP cost of Overseas dues. The subject of this thread, it has repeatedly been pointed out, was electronic bill payment. You know... Commerce in THIS CENTURY!
   
   I had a couple of Bristols, and belong to the Bristol Club. Unfortunately, the Bristol club is small and has nothing like the ACOC Forum. While it is a fine club, I had some difficulty finding resources available in my area. This was not the fault of the club.
   
   Because the ACOC Forum is so informative and energetic, and because I was able connect with others in my area,  my interest in AC has risen considerably, while enthusiasm for Bristol (Fine Cars though they were) has declined. I have now (regrettably) sold both Bristols.
   
   However do the Naysayers think a younger audience for AC's will appear?
   
   I'm willing to wager there are more multimillionaire car enthsiasts in the world under 30 years of age than there are surviving AC automobiles. What kind of Club would successful, interesting younger people of means like to join? AC's have found their way all over the Globe. The people who own AC's want to USE their cars, not stick them in a big garage and stare at them like many Ferrari owners do. (I do not wish to suggest that being "rich" is an essential quality. But the car hobby is not cheap, unfortunately. It's a luxury)
   
   It's even possible, if the prospect of putting one's car and oneself on an airplane to the UK were attractive enough, Some of the far-flung owners might even attempt to join in some of the events the club organizes.
   
   The Forum is attractive. Rising values of any AC makes the possibility of restoring the cars a better proposition. A lively club with helpful members willing to share information about parts or resources around the world can only be a good thing for the reputation and enjoyment of AC cars.

[Classicus]

quote:Originally posted by SBB
   
As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership,

   I'm not a member.

[C9OBY]

I've held back from a few earlier posts, but can hold back no longer.
   
   I am under 40, have a CRS and a MK4, have been a fully paid up member for almost 7 years, and regularly link up with the Surrey crowd and various other AC- and non-AC classic car events. I have attended a few AGM's, have chatted to various council and 'ordinary' members on these and other topics, and fully support the open club forum. I'm not a millionaire (yet!) but enjoy a hand's-on approach to my cars and opinions, and often assist other members with advice on various aspects of my cars, learnt from first hand experience on my own cars.  So, I'm hopefully the sort of person that the club would like to maintain and attract.
   
   However, it is with regret that I find that I've reached a tipping point with regards to my membership, due to some of the comments made by the administrator, SBB and a few other 'officials' of the club, both on this topic and others. True club colours are being shown in response to overseas (and local) requests for 'progress'.
   
   Some background: Contrasting with the very many positive experiences I've enjoyed within the club over the years, and friends made, I have also first-hend experienced some very unpleasant individuals and o'ld-guard' stuck-in-the-mud types for whom the sanctity of the club has been breached by newer members (i.e. Those outside the old-boys club who did not inherit the family silver, the family AC and the country estate). There are obviously exceptions to this generalisation, and they will know who they are (so don't take offence), but the council still remains held in a vice-like grip/influence by people of a certain age who appear to dislike progress.  It's already been mentioned that many refuse to even look at the forum, it's mere existence being an insult to their preserved view of what the club should be. Yet these will be the same people who will be sitting on the panel to adjudicate on paypal payments?  I can already predict the outcome of that decision!
   
   Exhibit 2: Bloody Johnny Foreigner in my club? What ho, what is the world coming to?  For those who don't know me, I am South African, and proud of it.  The most offensive moment of my membership was sitting at an official club dinner table opposite a long standing member on my first AC International, only to be told in front of everyone that England would never be properly 'cleansed' until every last one of my bloody countrymen had been returned to where we'd come from!  I've had other comments over the years regarding my nationality (once again at the annual dinner-dance),  plus (more annoyingly) disparaging comm£ents regarding the 'eligibility' of my membership due to my 'imposter' CRS not being a real AC (see many postings on this topic elsewhere on these forums...).
   
   Hence, why has the request for paypal has stirred such a storm on this forum?  I suspect that it's the very nature of this 20th century request has hit at a nerve of resentment by the old guard that I have seen manifest in other ways at club gatherings over my 7 years here.
   
   I no longer want to remain a member of this club that so obviously does not want to listen to (or respect) many of it's members! I think the time has come to throw in the towel.  I can get the info I need for my cars from friends or the motor trade. Perhaps I'll set up my own online forum exclusively for owners AND enthusiasts of the various MKIV variants, with NO membership fees beyond the odd beer at gatherings that I'm happy to arrange for like-minded individuals.
   
   And then I'll wait for 10 years, by which time the majority of the old guard who are strangling this club will have moved on to their eternal slumber, leaving a younger and more welcoming group of owners with the last laugh. That's assuming that the club survives until then...
   
   There are some enthusiastic, passionate and progressive individuals waiting in the shadows to take over the leadership of this club, but they are being held back by old school politics.  I suggest that other members join me and vote with their wallets and refuse to re-sign their membership forms unil such time as significant change is made to the club.  If I'm wrong and nobody agrees with me, my departure will be an insignificant blip to already-dwindling membership numbers. But if you do agree, then the only way to effect change appears to be via 'shareholder revolt', as evidence over recent years suggests that rhetoric is getting us nowhere.
   
   Until then, it's over and out, and out the door I go.

[Gus Meyjes]

Wow, very well said. Not having been at any of the events in the UK, simply because I am one of those foreigners, I did not want to chime in on that level, but it certainly appeared to me, as I've posted before, that it is a good old boys club.
   
   I think the club leadership would surprise itself by listening closely to all these comments and make a serious attempt to re-invent itself. The club would leap forward in ways unforeseen, or maybe unwanted by its stuffy partakers...
   
   I have not brought this to the forum to date, but one example of what bothered me specifically about the club leadership and it's obvious desire to stay in the previous century, is the fact that it is unwilling to recognize my AC 2.6 Ruddspeed ace and add it to the register. The reasons why are for another post, in case anyone is interested to hear, however i can tell you they are inconsistent with what has occurred with other cars that did get recognition and they are inconsistent with they way SAAC registers genuine cars. And I believe ACOC aligns itself with SAAC on matters involving registry of genuine cars.
   
   Never mind that my car has a genuine RS number, is in the original AC registry and has been certified by Lubinsky. And it's titled as a 1962 AC. Maybe the club is too arrogant and unwilling to recognize the fact there were cars built under the AC banner after the shelby and autokraft years... As much as Lubinsky might be a dirty word in the eyes of some at ACOC, the fact is that he owns the brand and that under that banner some cars were produced and are legitimate. Steve Grey has produced some himself. Wonder if he were able to get his to be entered into the club's registry...
   
   That episode really disappointed me and I thought I was being a little sensitive about the answer I got, but maybe there is some real truth to the attitude of club leadership.
   
   I will re instate my membership when the club has the means to let me do so electronically, either through Paypal or credit card. Mind you, my company organizes a race for charity in our town. We set up a paypal account to receive payment in a matter of 1 hour. It is no rocket science.
   
   Lastly, the points on wealthy people having interest in AC cars should be very important to the club's leadership. The interest in AC's and it's owner's club worldwide will die with the stuffy generation that is causing such controversy over this thread. And with that, prices of AC's will drop like bricks. I don't own my cars for investment purposes, I drive them, a lot. But I sure would like to see a club that has vision for the future, not one that is resistant to moving into the future...
   
   Gus

[ANF289]

quote:Originally posted by C9OBY
   
...The most offensive moment of my membership was sitting at an official club dinner table opposite a long standing member on my first AC International, only to be told in front of everyone that England would never be properly 'cleansed' until every last one of my bloody countrymen had been returned to where we'd come from!  I've had other comments over the years regarding my nationality (once again at the annual dinner-dance),  plus (more annoyingly) disparaging comments regarding the 'eligibility' of my membership due to my 'imposter' CRS not being a real AC (see many postings on this topic elsewhere on these forums...).

   I did not intend for a simple request to update the way we pay our dues to trigger a revolution, but clearly breaking free from the golden age of AC aristocracy into the 21st century, although rooted in the same mindset, goes beyond the concept of electronic bill pay.  Quitting is not the answer C9OBY, that just gives the ol' guard what they want, a purer club (which is as offensive and frightening as it sounds).  A better solution for us all, and the ACOC in particular, would be to recruit more South African members!
   
   Despite this newly recognized AC snobbery, I am still willing to re-up my membership as soon as an electronic bill pay option becomes available, primarily because of this forum and the wealth of AC-relevant information it contains.
   
   Gus, I would love to hear more about the battle over your AC 2.6 Ruddspeed ace... maybe in a new thread.
   
   Art

[Alan Faulkner-Stevens]

As a Club registrar i have read this thread with great interest. Firstly, i want to thank all the Members/enthusiasts from across parts of the globe who contribute. Due to the low volume production numbers of our cars, no help what-so-ever from the manufacturer, the Forum reaches many people and with that makes available a huge raft of knowledge and experience. I have found that genreally the people who contribute are genuine, if a little tongue in cheek sometimes. I am worried because our Club appears to have two distinct groups, the early boys [the very valuable cars], and the later owners, MkIV's etc. There are of course exceptions to this, but personally owning a CRS often makes me feel like the very poor relation. The fact i own 3 genuine Shelby Mustangs also does nothing to help at all. As a very minor Club official, the Forum is an excellent way of reaching other members with serious problems. For instance, the CRS front suspension top mount failure. People/owners need to be aware of these things. The fact the owners of the AC brand denied the problem is neither here nor there, the info needs to be availble to a larger audience. Fundamentally, i don't care whether you are a member or not, if you have something decent to say/valuable piece of experience to pass on, please do so its important. I am saddened to say in the AC old guard there are some serious stiff shirts who don't like us new boys with our modern ways and strange technology but they are a dying breed who i beleive strangle the Club. I would ask this though, these straight laced people who don't like the Forum etc, what are they doing to promote the Club or get our cars our to a wider audience? When i go to a car show, i would say if there is a Cobra there it is a MkIV with a friendly owner who is willing to talk to the public about their car. Without letting people know about our cars how are we going to get people who are outside the AC circle interested in our vehicles, perhaps aspire to one, and join the Club thus bringing fresh blood/ideas and of course subscriptions. As a Shelby Mustang owner also i read a post which discussed the fact the early cars had reached such heady values they had automatically excluded 90% of interested enthusiasts who with families/commitments could never hope to own such a car. However, when Shelby produced his new Shelby GT from 2006 at an affordable price, he opened the brand up to a completely new audience, thus reinvigorating the Shelby name. New younger people could own a piece of the history, this is no different to the late AC cars MKIV/CRS etc. Without these new members our Club is going to die out. Please member/non-members don't give up on this Club or writing on the Forum, without  your input its nothing.