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[Gus Meyjes]

welcome back, Nik

[shep]

Gus, I saw the original request to advertise the Dusseldorf Cobra meeting. I have written before that I firmly believe the ACOC should be an inclusive (not exclusive) club, and give equality to all cars within the marque. HOWEVER.... this was NOT an ACOC event. It was a private invitation to the owners of specific AC cars. As such it fell into the same category as some the 3000ME events as far as the club was concerned. If owners of a particular model wish to organise their own event, it is up to them who they choose to invite. When it comes to official ACOC events like National Days, International Tours, Sprints, Concours, Dinners etc etc, then every member is welcome! I have asked for a late pass tonight as I expect a long Council Meeting up in a hot and humid London pub. I hope the beer chillers are working!

[Gus Meyjes]

Shep,
   
   I did not post the thing on the "original" Cobra meeting in Dusseldorf. But I'd love to have a beer in a pub and be a fly on the wall at the counsil meeting!
   
   I would also love for the club to be inclusive of AC cars that were built after Thames Ditton, Frimley, Malta etc etc. As my car is not acknowledged by the club. ACOC could take an example from SAAC on expanding the registry with categories that legitimize genuine cars, but not in the same category as cars built in period... Maybe another thing for the Counsil agenda.
   
   Gus

[shep]

Sorry Gus, I should have addressed my post to Nik, but the sentiment applies to all. You will soon see some news following last night's  Council meeting, but I will not steal anyone's thunder. You would have enjoyed the meeting which as predicted was a long one. I finally got home about 00.30 and made full use of my late pass! I have a really busy morning, but will check in later when I have 5 mins to spare.

[administrator]

There was extended debate on these matters on Thursday and the first point is that the ACOC has often in the past asked for feedback.  There can be no complaints that much has been submitted.
   
   Our Hon Treasurer is not in a position to spend time investigating the mechanics of an electronic payment system but David Goose has kindly offered to do so, using the experience gained running his business.
   
   There was unanimous agreement amongst those present that the Forum should stay in the public area.  As has been pointed out here and previously, the website including the Forum is the public face of the ACOC and it is no place for personal comments or attacks.  Deleting this thread and replacing it with a short summary was discussed but it will remain, as indeed some pungent letters to ACtion in past years remain for reference.
   
   Let's get back to enjoying our cars!

[Gus Meyjes]

I like that!
   
   Gus

[shep]

Wow, now there is a can of worms! How should we define an AC? If a car is manufactured by craftsmen employed by AC Cars, in a factory which exists specifically for that purpose, I would be inclined to agree. If however there is no AC Factory, and an AC badge is applied to the product of another company, I'm not so sure. Also if the AC badge is applied to a reproduction of a 1960s classic, it can never inherit the identity or value of the genuine article. Of course as a car enthusiast I would love to meet the owner of any such product and discuss its merits, but it will always remain a reproduction. I know that in order to pander to the climate change regulations, Aston Martin stick their badge on a Smart Car, but does that make it a real Aston? I don't think so.Unfortunately there are a lot of people who wish to kid you that they can change plain water into wine, and sell it at Grand Cru Classe prices.Caveat emptor! Money is hard enough to make these days and I would advise extreme caution when parting with lots of it. Of course fools and their money will always be vulnerable.

[Gus Meyjes]

And you wasted no time to pull some worms out of that can!![:)]
   
   I'm one of those "owners of any such product" as you may know. I enjoy both what you call the "genuine article" in my Aceca, AEX 674, as well as the proverbial "replica" with a Kirkham 289 FIA and than something in between: RS 5038, which had it's chassis and aluminum skin made by the factory craftsmen in a genuine AC factory, however was completed by myself... Would the latter be a "badged" smart car? I don't think so.  It's not a 1962 car, but it is an original. I don't think one should call it a reproduction. It was produced by AC for a genuine AC enterprise (AC Heritage, USA), that, as so many AC ventures lately, failed to succeed. How is the ACOC going to look at Steve Grey's enterprise with AC in it's Heritage program? I think it would behoove the ACOC to find ways to classify these cars, as years down the road the waters are going to be murky, and people don't recall what is "real" or original from the early years, and what is not.  This is why SAAC now registers the Kirkhams, among others. It certainly registers the 4000, 7000 and 8000 series modern Cobras. And are those real, reproductions, replicas or what? They are not manufactured at Shelby American...
   
   I think there is value, both for the ACOC as well as owners, to legitimize these cars with a registry position. I think the key is to be respectful and inclusive in this process. Anyone that genuinely understands AC, knows that the "originals" always will be worth more than "heritage" cars. I can tell you from my perspective that all three feel "real" to me, and I enjoy all three of them tremendously!
   
   So what is so problematic about simply registering them? a register for the Heritage cars, the Iconic cars, the "German" cars and all cars Chafford mentioned in his posting.
   
   History in the making is a malleable thing, what happens in it we don't personally control and, for a fact, many on this forum don't like it, but it all is part of the AC history nevertheless.
   
   Is it the ACOC's role to write history the way it likes to see it? Or should it simply record the history, regardless of the feeling many have within the ACOC?
   
   Gus

[jrlucke]

For the record I believe the Aston Martin Cygnet is a rebadged Toyota rather than Smart car (Mercedes). Maybe we can rebadge a Fiat 500 and get a license to market it as a new, modern AC.
   
   I tend to be a purist and while I really appreciate the reproductions, I don't see the linkage and wonder the consequences of puting AC badges on a home-built replica-car. In the end it gets very difficult to identify the real deal.
   
   I do recognize the linkage of the AC Heritage/Steve Grey cars but not Hawks, Kirkhams, FormulaFive's etc. beyond that they look like an AC.
   
   My neighbor has a MG lookalike with the engine in the rear and Volkswagen mufflers. I would never consider it eligible for registry as a MG TD.
   
   Maybe a membership level for afficianado AC fans but leave the registry to Cobra lookalike groups.
   
   Just an opinion, John

[Robin A Woolmer]

So where would you put my 1936 16/80 Competition two seater ?
   
   Robin

[Emmanueld]

Obviously Kirkhams are not original cars and are reproductions, rather exact since most parts fit the originals. There should be classification for such cars. Maybe in this case,  reproduction should be the term. For cars made by AC later on and which are reproductions of original Thames Ditton classics, maybe continuation should be the term, these are obviously  not original since they were recently built.  However,  They are genuine ACs' since they were built by a licensed company.  Cars like the MKIV which are an evolution, should probably be  referred to as originals since they are not a reproduction of the MKIII, there are so many differences compared to the original mainly due to changes in regulations in the US. If AC came up with a real new car, that would be an original as well. Replicas could be cars which are meant to look like cobra but have nothing mechanically  in common with the original.
   
   I worked for Cartier for 10 years and we were confronted with the same problem because at one point, Cartier Paris, London and New York were separate companies under different ownership and that  for about 20 years  until the seventies, some of the products that were made by these companies were really cheap.  I can tell you that we were very careful to never do anything that would cheapen the brand. Aston Martin should use much care in selecting what product they sell under their name or they will disappear.
   
   This is a difficult subject with many different points of view. I really think the club should be inclusive, at the same time it needs to come up with a system to classify all the cars.
   
   Emmanuel

[shep]

Hi Gus, I agree with a lot of what you say. By the way, that is my personal opinion, as I can not represent the views of the ACOC and its Council without raising the issues at a monthly meeting. Some of the registers list cars under a separate section which have incomplete or debatable histories. It tends to apply more to the models which have the greatest financial gain from "originality". Those who know me, will realise that I enjoy driving AC cars and don't have much regard for all the politics. Race cars are constantly being developed, and therefore having matching serial numbers is unusual, or an indication the car wasn't that good and wasn't raced much! I will race any spec of car within reason, as long as it complies with the regulations. So originality is less important to me than its competitiveness. In my 428 Frua Register, there are a number of cars which were chopped and rebuilt as Cobras. It was a real shame, but if at the time, the 428 was only worth 20k and the owner couldn't afford 200k for a real Cobra, I can sort of understand the logic. The problem is that the original 428 could now be worth close to 100k, but the Cobra reproduction a lot less. It is neither a 428 nor a Cobra and only exists in a special section outside the main Register which I believe is how it should be. Otherwise some unsuspecting purchaser in the future could be conned out of a king's ransom, believing it to be an original 427 Cobra, and no one wants that.

[Robin A Woolmer]

Has this become a club for Post War Cars only? it certainly looks that way!
   I think you will find Mr Weller led the way very early on with his engine design & the subsiquent early achievements, most if not all the post war cars/engines were not designed by AC, however i am not sure about the ME Chassis!
   
   Robin

[Gus Meyjes]

Robin, Emmanuel and Shep ,
   
   I agree with you guys. John, I think you missed my point. I did not talk about MG's with VW engines, or Factory Five cars. Of course there can be no register through ACOC for Hawk cars and the likes, but there are true AC cars that are not registered. The Heritage cars fit that group. That in and of itself can be a category. And as far as "home builts"with a badge on them not being worthy, then I suppose one needs to remove a whole slough of cars from the registry. Such as Frua-to-Cobra rebuilds, crashed and burned Cobras that have one part in common with the original, but have been completely rebuilt etc, etc. And Shep made some good comments about "originality" as well with respect to race cars. I'm not familiar with Robin's plight, but if a car like that is not officially recognized by ACOC, that would be a huge omission.
   
   I suppose I could write to the counsil with a proposal, but I think there would be a lot of value in having open discussion on the forum in order for ideas to float and matters to crystallize.
   Or maybe, considering the previous posts in this particular thread, the counsil would never even consider doing such a thing as adding categories to the register.
   
   Gus

[Classicus]

Don't know if this is any help but I've always understood it down the years as those cars that were built and driven out of the factory concerned, whatever their subsequent fate, and those that were finished off elsewhere. I think Gus has a point but so as to avoid confusion to buyers and being conned in the far future over originality, as Andy pointed out, could there not be a category for say "home built/finished" as well ?
   
   Just my farthing's worth [;)]