Archeology: what is hiding under the paint?

[bex316]

Using modern (or old) technology is there any way to find some evidence of a starting number ever having been applied under the current layer of paint on a car?
   My Ace was resprayed somewhere between 1964 and 1970 (probably before 1968) and the original paint is still there under it. I am not sure if that is the case on every part of the car but I would think so.
   Presumably the car had SCCA racing history before that time. Unfortunately until now it has not been possible to verify this. There is only written "evidence" in a 1970 article pointing to this. A racing number might provide a lead as usually entrants raced using the same number for several races. It would make sense not having to change your number before every race if you were a regular entrant.
   Of course you could strip the body to bare aluminium but there is a time for everything and even in doing so you might destroy any evidence if you don't know what you are doing just like in archeology.
   Any suggestions on how to approach this matter?
   
   Jerry

[AEX566]

Jerry;
   A non-destructive possibility would be thermography. Basically you're trying to see a pattern in the differential in transmission of heat waves passing through the paint layers and aluminum. I looked into thermography when I was attempting to measure damage to my sailboat's hull by identifying where there was delamination in the glas layers. There are a few marine surveyors here in Florida that do this work and have the necessary equipment.  Since the possible roundel (s) would most likely be on the doors and/or hood, you'd set up a heat lamp inside the panel, and see if the thermocamera  can discern any pattern that would be the underlying racing numbers.
   Randy Baselt's 1991 Register has the first owner of BEX 316 as "D Durst". Do you have any ideas on further information like a first name, or an address?
   Art

[AC Ace Bristol]

Art
   
   Not trying to detract from the paint removal thread, but a little additional info on Jerry's BEX316.....[;)]
   
   The Official Ace Bristol Register records , Derek Hurst, David Belden, Bill Mc Kenna and Rick Kimball as previous owners, and If my grey cells serve me
   correctly Rick Kimball bought  BEX316 as a possible Ex-Race car.[:p]
   
   If it was already painted by (1964) the unusual Pumking colour (Ford Truck color " Cordova ")
   Surely some Ace - Sports Car racing  enthusiast has a picture or some record/s of Jerry's Ace BEX316 racing in SCCA events.
   Paddock and or Track pictures.  
   
   Jerry when did BEX316 wear Californian number plate " HIG985 " .. [?]
   
   Hopefully some one can supply Jerry with  a few potential leads & better still some pictures, to confirm Racing History of BEX316 ...
   Good Luck Jerry, keep persevering... Little Gems do turn up to help create a bigger picture.
   
   Getting back to original thread, Interesting that you can use thermal technology to ascertain what lurks beneath the surface...  have you or any one actually
   carried out this proceedure. [?]
   
   Keith

[aex125]

Art is correct that Thermography could be used for this, but it depends on the sensitivity of the camera being used. Below is a link that shows a motorcycle engine warming up and over the exhaust is a heat shield. The heat shield warms up at a different rate and so it is clearly visible.
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYkgZXfBjOc&feature=related
   
   This is the same thing that may be visible on the car door, but you will need a fairly sensitive camera to see it.
   
   Below is another example of what can be seen using a Thermal camera.
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWxMj64sKgM&feature=related
   
   Go to ~3 minutes and 33 secs and you can see the stripes on a zebra. This is analogous to what you would be doing in looking for a number on a door.
   
   Jay

[tinnes]

Jerry -
   
   Have you tried one of the many different types of paint thickness gauges that are on the market? they are generally used to determine overall paint thickness or to detect area where paint might cover body filler. They make a type that will work on alumin(i)um but I do not how sensitive they are. On a relatively flat surface such as a door panel i would think that paint thickness would be relatively uniform and perhaps an  additional layer added as a 2 or 3 digit number might register. You might have to try several locations across the panel. Most body shops will have one.
   
   tom i in AZ

[BEX 277]

Jerry, I may be able to shed a bit of light on this.  Both Derek Durst and Dave Belden are still around.  Derek is living in New Mexico and frequently sells items on ebay under the user name, "Mr. Badger."  Dave Belden lives in Connecticut and I see him once or twice a year.  He raced in SCCA for years and is currently running a Lotus IX or X in vintage races.  Dave came to an autocross in Rhode Island with his AC about 1975 and, I believe, that was the first time I saw an AC in the flesh.  I remember it was painted a kind of odd salmon color.  I don't believe it had a number on it and I don't know if Dave had raced the car.  At that time, he had been racing a Spitfire in SCCA for many years.  I'll try to find Dave's number and give him a call to ask if he raced your car or knows if anyone did.
   
   Andy

[BEX 277]

Follow Up
   
   I just heard from Derek Durst who responded to an email.  He bought the car from Dave Belden and sold it on to Holland.  He doesn't think it was raced.
   
   Andy

[BEX 277]

More Info.
   
   Okay, I just got off the phone with Dave Belden.  He bought the car from Bill McKenna around 1973-1974.  Bill bought the car on the West Coast and had it shipped back.  Dave never raced the car in SCCA but ran it in one VSCCA race at the old Thompson track in Connecticut in 1976 or 1977.  He doesn't think the car had any SCCA history but it did have a chrome single hoop roll bar, but not the kind you would use in SCCA.  He said the car had no evidence of any kind of race prep and was on drum brakes, which would have been converted to discs for racing.  I asked him about a number on the car and, though the car had been repainted, there was no evidence of a number.  I hope this information helps.
   
   Andy

[bex316]

Thanks for all the input! I am surprised to see all these reactions, both relating to my original question but also concerning the car's history which is the reason for my question of course.
   I heard about thermography before but never made the link to a situation like this. Thanks Art and Jay, I will look into that. I already watched the YouTube videos.
   Tom, no I have not tried a gauge yet for measuring paint thickness. Another route to go. Usually racing numbers are to be found on the doors as you state or sometimes just in front of them. Likewise on the bonnet (hood) or just in front of it on the nose. So that helps when looking for one.
   Andy, many thanks to you also for sharing your knowledge on this car with me and quickly contacting Dave Belden as well to hear his story.
   I knew about Derek Durst. In fact, a few weeks ago I bought the roll bar that was once fitted to this car from him on eBay. It was delivered last Thursday. He still had it after all these years. He was the one taking it off while owning the car during the first half of the 1990s. It is almost certainly the chrome single hoop roll bar Dave mentions. While it may not be the kind usually seen in period SCCA racing, there were variations on the theme. I guess you have in mind the style with the 'flat top' as being the 'standard' period SCCA issue? This style was mostly used but I know of at least two cars raced in period that had a style more like mine. One belonging to Team Pellandini and raced (among others) by Barbara Windhorst and the other one raced by Pete Kunkle. There is a picture available of both these cars racing with the roll bar visible. Unfortunately both these cars are as yet unaccounted for. The chassis numbers are unknown and so it is also unsure whether they survived.
   Regarding Derek´s statement selling it to Holland, that is correct. He sold it to his (business) friend Frank Boxmeer in 1996 who sold it to me in 1997. About the car never having been raced, hmmm, that's not exactly his words to me. He literally emailed me with the phrase "I have the feeling the roll bar dates from the car's racing days."
   Andy, funny to hear you already saw this car in 1975. I have not heard the colour being described as an odd salmon hue until now but this colour causes different reactions from different people! It will not be confused with another Ace. By the way, its nickname is "Pumpkin". I wasn't the one christening it, it already had this name.
   From Derek Durst I recently heard that indeed he bought it from Dave. Now I hear that Dave bought it from Bill McKenna. All these names were already known to me but I wasn't totally sure if this was the continuous owner history with no other owners in between. Now that has been confirmed which is good news. I thought Dave bought it in 1975 but it could well have been 1 or 2 years earlier. As far as I know he sold it in 1990 to Derek.
   Good to hear Bill bought the car on the West Coast. This makes sense as earlier (1970) information had this car located in Southern California.
   Dave mentions the drum brakes, not to be expected on an (ex) race car. The car still has them today and this idea has also crossed my mind. However, it could have been returned to its original state after being retired as a racer, although I don't know why an owner would do that. I have to agree with Dave about the race prep not being visible. However, I have not pulled the head yet so no clues yet on possible internal engine modifications. Did Dave ever open the engine?
   Was the car possibly changed back during the transition from alleged race car to street car? Were some visible modifications lost during that exercise?
   
   Now where did this story on possible racing history come from?? From Rick Kimball, the owner that probably sold it to Bill McKenna. Now that is the person I would really like to find and get in touch with! He is the one responsible for all this!
   There was an article in 'Road Test' magazine on this car, the October 1970 issue. It was later reprinted in the Brooklands Books series. Some people may know this article. If you do not have this book, no problem, you can read the 4 page article here:
   
   http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/VanKalleveenACBristolArticle1.html
   
   As you can see the car was for sale at that time and the roll bar the sign was attached to is almost certainly the one Dave mentions and the one now in my possession.
   After reading the story, what do you think? Rick Kimball should know more. I hope he is still around, ever to be found and still able to shine some light on this matter!
   Probably to help sell his car Rick also composed a type-written leaflet (double sided) describing the car and its engine modifications. I still have this leaflet as well as a small brown logbook and an old and probably original instruction manual.
   
   The rest of my plea for historical information on my car is to be found here:
   
   http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/VanKalleveenMysteryCar.html
   
   The first 3 pictures were taken in 2001 by me.
   The next picture shows Dave Belden on the left (the blonde one), according to Derek. When was this picture taken? Does Dave have any idea? Derek could not identify the other person in the picture but maybe Dave can?
   The last picture was taken in Derek Durst's garage. The last 2 pictures also show the roll bar still being on the car.
   
   My car has a replica chassis plate. A nice quality, it is hard to distinguish from an original one but still a replica. Probably added by Derek who has even offered one or two unstamped ones on eBay during recent years. At least it is good to know why the original one was taken out. The reason is to be found in the 1970 article. They found it desirable to add a heater, something this example did not have originally. Unfortunately they chose an unoriginal one and fitted it at exactly the spot where the chassis plate was fitted. The main reason for the chassis plate to go was the hole being cut in the top of the right side footbox, probably for the warm air pipe to be able to enter the interior. There is still evidence of this. The heater itself is gone though.
   I would have thought the original chassis plate was not simply thrown away but it might have been misplaced and eventually lost forever. Small chance it will ever turn up again!
   
   Regarding the car's earliest history, it wasn't delivered new to California. According to the AC factory ledger, it was shipped to Jarrard Motors in Pensacola, FL. I do not know exactly when it made the transition from East Coast to West Coast.
   On the leaflet mentioned before Rick mentions a 1959 list price higher than the official list price (even the West Coast list price). Why higher? Why 1959? He knew the car dated from 1957. Was it a simple error? Or was this car sold later? And why? So many unanswered questions.
   Unfortunately unlike for BEX 277 there is no first owner registered for BEX 316.
   
   I almost forgot to thank our ever active and helpful Keith! Thanks for your history in a nutshell on 316! To answer your question on the Californian number plate "HIG985", well look at the 1970 article. Any chance such an old plate number might be of any help?
   
   Just a curiosity, the 1970 article mentions that the Englebert spare tyre and the rear tyres were the last of the tyres supplied at the time of purchase by Rick in 1964. While the rear tyres are (probably long) gone, the Englebert spare is still there in the boot/trunk!
   
   That is all for now. When I can think of more that is interesting enough to tell, I will add it.
   Thanks again to all contributors. Please keep information coming in if you have any, no matter how small or insignificant it might seem to be. Just look at Keith's thread on the history of BEX 333. If only a fraction of that amount of info would ever come to light on BEX 316, I would already be very happy.
   
   Hope I have not bored some readers with this long post, except for the true anoraks like Keith, Tim Isles and some others!
   
   Jerry

[jrlucke]

These photos of a car a friend purchased shows why the chrome roll bars were not race approved. They tended to collapse (and do lots of damage to the deck).
   
   

[bex316]

John, I have seen these pictures before and they are not a pretty sight. Mind you, nice period pics, unfortunate about the situation though. Thanks for sharing them.
   I would think that failure of a roll bar to do what it is supposed to do in the case of an accident would have more to do with the quality and solidity of its attachment than with its shape or a chrome finish. I believe in itself the Ace is not the easiest car to attach a roll bar to that should serve more than just a cosmetic purpose.
   Also I have read comments that the (approved?) type usually seen in pictures of period SCCA or other events wasn't a perfect example of structural integrity. Maybe there is a picture to prove this point?
   On the other hand, not every Ace entered in a competitive event had a roll bar fitted. Just witness Keith's BEX 333 in the Westwood 1959 pictures. Even though his car is not connected with the big US Ace drivers, it still has racing history that is worth researching.
   Actually I have no idea if the roll bar once present on my car was fitted during its racing career (presumed it ever had one!) or afterwards.
   
   Jerry

[pls01]

Jerry,
   A little off thread, but I believe the roll bar is not SCCA legal because it doesn't have a brace going forward or rear.  Mounting and construction were also specified.
   Peter

[AC Ace Bristol]

quote:Originally posted by bex316
   
John, I have seen these pictures before and they are not a pretty sight. Mind you, nice period pics, unfortunate about the situation though. Thanks for sharing them.
   I would think that failure of a roll bar to do what it is supposed to do in the case of an accident would have more to do with the quality and solidity of its attachment than with its shape or a chrome finish. I believe in itself the Ace is not the easiest car to attach a roll bar to that should serve more than just a cosmetic purpose.
   Also I have read comments that the (approved?) type usually seen in pictures of period SCCA or other events wasn't a perfect example of structural integrity. Maybe there is a picture to prove this point?
   On the other hand, not every Ace entered in a competitive event had a roll bar fitted. Just witness Keith's BEX 333 in the Westwood 1959 pictures. Even though his car is not connected with the big US Ace drivers, it still has racing history that is worth researching.
   Actually I have no idea if the roll bar once present on my car was fitted during its racing career (presumed it ever had one!) or afterwards.
   
   Jerry
   

   
   
   Jerry
   
   BEX333 like BEX316 and many other Aces raced in period were fitted during there racing life with some sort of Roll Hoop.
   
   BEX333  had two holes cut through the Aluminium Body work (rear scuttle) to accomodate the Roll Hoop which terminated on the Ali shelf directly above
   the leaf spring. (Photos to follow) As much use as a chocolate tea pot or ashtray on a motor bike !..[;)]
   
   Same with the pair of period lap seat belts which were simply bolted through the Ali floor with large penny washers. on either side ....  Again totally ineffective.[V]
   
   Any Roll Hoop without a Petty Bar triangulating the hoop at 90 degrees (forward or rearward)  and secured back to the chassis would just collapse offering
   no protection whatso ever.  Aesthetics only.
   
   I haven't as yet seen any photos of BEX333 with the roll hoop fitted, but the holes and scars in the bodywork indicate one was fitted sometime between 1959 and 1964.
   
   Good Luck with your research on History of BEX316. ( Especially any Racing History)
   
   Keith..[:)]

[jrlucke]

Were the chrome hoops a factory option? The red car's roll bar was very much as Keith described (to my knowledge the car was first sold in Lake Forest Illinois(Chicago area).
   I don't believe it had any racing history or modifications. Just prior to the damage (road accident) the car had just undergone a new paint job with new carpeting.

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol...BEX333 had two holes cut through the Aluminium Body work (rear scuttle) to accomodate the Rool Hoop which terminated on the Ali shelf directly above the leaf spring...the holes and scars in the bodywork indicate one was fitted sometime between 1959 and 1964...Keith..[:)]

Here is a photo of BEX333 to illustrate those holes, in bare aluminium from circa 1978:
   
   
   
   And undergoing surgery at Brooklands Motor Company, 2005, during which the holes were filled, now that a real rollbar is fitted!: