AC Frua Restoration Part 2

[Emmanueld]

After careful consideration, there are four more areas that will have to be addressed by the metalsmiths. Right front wing, Right rear wing, and the door sill areas on both sides. When we did the sills, we left a small strip in the door jam area and it's corroding again, and there is tons of lead. We will change it! The car is getting lighter, I am as well! After that, that will be it.
   
   Emmanuel [:(]

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by lyonheart84
   
Good grief Emmanuel that's some major surgery on the front fender! That rod shop's workmanship is superb !
   

   Yes, they are amazing. If anybody wants a good metal shop in Southern California, I will be glad to give them the name. They can make just about anything!
   
   Emmanuel [8D]

[ACOCArch]

Originally posted by nikbj68
   
   Re the earlier post about ali bodies for the AC 428 the first car, a convertible then called the AC 427, had an ali body. The argument presented at the time was that a steel body needed much less by way of sub-structure and was in the end both simpler to make and lighter. Hence the change.
   
   All the AC 428 production bodies were made in Italy out of Italian steel, which then was notorious for corroding quickly.
   
   This argument for steel does seem somewhat at odds with AC's established practice, given their long experience of producing cars with ali bodies.
   
   Fantastic work on the restoration.

[Emmanueld]

Thanks. I think it all came to a matter of cost. Aluminium is much more expensive to use on a car. It requires a strong substructure to be viable. The amount of labor involved would have made to car even more pricey than it was. When not done right, in some very rare case, aluminium cars can weight more than steel bodied ones, like the early very rare and very pricey alloy Jaguar XK120 which is heavier than the steel bodied one. The Maserati Mistral is an all alloy car, and it is very similar in many ways to the Frua, so Frua had the know how  to build the AC in alloy.
   
   Hi, I have 2 more photos taken tonight. They are now making the tool to build the lip. Here is the wing progressing:
   
   
   
   
   The next step will be to weld the lip to the wing after it is made up. Ben is actually fabricating the piece which will go in the lower front valence.
   
   Emmanuel [:)]

[Michael Trotter]

Emmanuel
   As you know I am having CF6 repainted. It's now down to bare metal after removing lots of layers of paint and filler. No horrors uncovered - some minor corrosion which will be cut out and replaced with new steel. The car had a major rebuild in 1996 before I owned it and I am satisfied that it is structurally very good and the right shape except for the shape of the front wings which I have always thought were too high. But then what is 'right'? I think I see evidence of change in the flow of the line through the tops of the doors into the wings after early cars. These appear to have a virtually straight plated trim at the tops of the doors and quite a flat wing line whereas later cars have a door trim more curved in the vertical plane, concave up, leading into the wings with a highest point above or just behind the wheel centre and then falling to the headlight. I am sure there were random differences between cars and what has changed in the subsequent 40 years? Photographs of cars are difficult to interpret as the effect of lighting and distortion of perspective can be misleading. The best example I have of the side elevation is that of CF57 (Classic and Sportscar March 2008) which Paul used as the header for his register. This appears to have been shot in a studio and seems to me to be 'right' and pleasing to my eye. So we will use this as a guide but difficult to transfer from picture to car. I know you are keen to get your car right; do you have a view on this aspect of the shape? In the pictures you posted by Heritage Classics and in the bodyshop it appears, but may not actually be, that your door trims ars straightish and the wings flattish both in side elevation and in cross section. Or is this a false impression? How does the profile look in the flesh in side elevation? I think the differences I am talking about are small but are important. If the wing line is too high the wings seem inconsistent with the low nose and if they are too flat the car can look as if it has sagged in the middle.
   Do you think the wing lines on your car are 'right'? Are they same as Jeff's car? Do they look the same as CF57 (3 cars later)? Do you think fastbacks and convertibles should be the same ? - I am assuming they should.
   Sorry to put all these questions to you when you are busy with your car but I would much appreciate your views.
   Michael

[Emmanueld]

Michael Hi,
   
   To tell you the truth, I am not completely sure, Jeffrey's car lines seem similar to mine with the exception of the sills. His is an "early" car while mine is a "late" one. On his car, there is an indentation on the belt below the door line and the sill goes down vertically. On my car the old sills (Not original) were completely rounded which was probably wrong. When we re-did them and after looking at photos of "late" cars, we decided to make the sills flat (as opposed to rounded like before) but at an angle, going in-ward, not vertical like earlier cars.
   As far as the line which travels from behind the headlight to the back of the car, the shape is exactly the same on Jeffrey's car and on mine. I will look again a bit more carefully just to double check. Now this line is not straight or flat, it is curved on the front wing, goes flatter straight down on the door and curves back up under the door handle to meet the rear wing. There, it rises above the rear wheel and curves down again to turn back up again sharply at the rear like a little spoiler. I have not noticed a difference on Jeffrey car or on the Pebble Beach winner other "early" green roadster I have seen and of which I have numerous photos.  I do think the wing line on my car is right because they are the same on both sides and there has not been an accident. There is no trace of one on the bare metal on either side of the car. The front wings are quite high on all the cars I have seen, I think its part of the design. Since you took your car to bare metal, you were able to identify any accident or piece which is not original. All these things leave traces behind. On my car, hideous repairs were hidden under massive amounts of lead. Remember, if there is any hidden rust, it will eventually bubble your nice and brand new paint job. You can use a magnet and identify place where it does not stick and you know you have an issue there. We just found a spot behind the right front door on top at the base of the convertible top were the magnet does not stick. About 3 to 4" full of lead and when you look on the other side, in the convertible top opening there is yellow grease which is really animal fat and which is used to apply the lead. Another shady repair which will be addressed shortly. As far as the chrome trim, are you talking about the side window chrome trim? Looking at CF70 photos, you get the impression it is sagging in the middle, but I think it is due to the rear suspension which is too low or sagging. I have not seen the car other than in photograph.
   
   Let me know if you want any photos? I will be happy to E-mail you some.
   
   Regards,
   
   Emmanuel [:)]

[J Jones]

Michael - I sent you an email with my email address. If you'd like, I'll send you photos of my car taken last week. They show the profile clearly, if that's any help to you.
   
   I would think the shape of the fender arches, and the belt line, is most likely the same for both the Fastback and the roadster.
   
   My car came to me as it is now. I do not know anything of it's historywith the exception of it's delivery to N.America from the factory. But there have been quite a few eyeballs on my car, and the consensus is that it has not been hit, and it's not rusted. Won't know for sure without removing the paint.
   I think the mileage is original (44,444), and it's been in N. America it's whole life (I believe).

[Classicus]

Hi Jeff when did you buy it ?

[lyonheart84]

Hi everyone, further to talk on sill shapes, in fact CF42 the first fastback I owned at the beginning of the 1980's ( I wish I had been able to afford to keep her ) had a new complete front end ( the last new one available from the factory apparently ) fitted in the late 1970's probably due to a front end shunt. It was still in primer when I got the car circa 1982. However the sills APPEARED to be 100% original with the original chrome plugs fitted in the jacking points which had clearly never been removed and were rusted into place. The sills were actually SLIGHTLY CURVED. Every replacement sill I have ever seen on 428's always seemed to be straight including sill restoration / replacements done by the AC factory. I assume the originals if slightly curved were tricky to make and I'm aware of various claims in the 1980's that Hillman Hunter / Cortina sills were 'similar'. Since the cars were hand built at Frua I have a suspicion that the sills varied over the 6 or 7 years of production as so few were built every year so maybe some had slightly curved sills and some straight? I've also seen variations in the lower front leading corner of the sills from a fairly sharp angled corner to a rounded-off corner. Nearly every Frua you see today has no jacking points in the sills so they have been removed or covered over when the sills were repaired or replaced. I dread to think if they have been simply been covered over what is happening to the sills inside ! From the cars I looked at in the early 1980's it would appear that Frua left the insides of the body panels in bare metal or very basic primer ! The cars were already starting to rust when new especially if used in damp or temperate climates. I doubt if there is anything that would be deemed to be 100% 'correct' as far as restoration is concerned as there is no definitive guideline. Unless there is such a thing as a 1 owner untouched original 428 sitting in someone's garage unused and covered in dust for 35 or 40 years then perhaps we'll never know. Does anyone know if Jim Feldman replaced the sills on his convertible when he refurbished it and what shape his sills were? When we sold him the car circa 1984 it had been colour changed by the second owner but I suspect the panelwork was probably all original as the car had been little used and was low mileage. Be interesting to hear what Jim thinks as I believe he has a fastback also.

[J Jones]

quote:Originally posted by Classicus
   
Hi Jeff when did you buy it ?
   

   
   Paul - I think I bought it in 2003. The car ran so hot I couldn't use it until I started addressing the issue. My first attempt involved replacing the radiator, which was only marginally helpful on it's own.
   My belief that the indicated mileage was correct was very much influenced by how unuseable the car was on all but the coldest days. CFX29 accumulated a great deal of time parked in my garage. I assumed that previous owners experience was similar, keeping the mileage low over it's lifetime.
   When Emmanuel bought his car and embarked on improving it, I benefitted from his experimentation.

[nikbj68]

Hey Manny, I hope you`re getting a discount from the Hot Rodders for all this lead you`re giving them!
   Must be enough for a `51 Mercury 'Lead Sled' by now?!
   
   

[Classicus]

quote:Originally posted by Classicus
   

Originally posted by Classicus
   
Hi Jeff when did you buy it ?
   Paul - I think I bought it in 2003. The car ran so hot I couldn't use it until I started addressing the issue. My first attempt involved replacing the radiator, which was only marginally helpful on it's own.
   My belief that the indicated mileage was correct was very much influenced by how unuseable the car was on all but the coldest days. CFX29 accumulated a great deal of time parked in my garage. I assumed that previous owners experience was similar, keeping the mileage low over it's lifetime.
   When Emmanuel bought his car and embarked on improving it, I benefitted from his experimentation.
   

   Thanks Jeff. Talking of running hot did you fit a spoiler in the end as I also remember you saying that like Emmanuel you don't get the old problem of overheating any more in hot weather. Or did you just fit the same heat insulation that he did as well ?
   
   Another thought hope Peter in Queensland's OK after that awful cyclone and haven't heard from Damien in a while either as he'd almost finished his restoration....? And I often wonder what happened to CF 5 Chuck Maddox's Press car as well....?

[lyonheart84]

None of my 428's ran hot in the UK except maybe in freak temperature conditions in heavy traffic, guess they were designed for use in the UK by a UK based company ! The original metal bladed twin fans were inadequate but high speed plastic bladed Kenlowes would work if the radiator was in top condition, but obviously AC never had the financial resources to try the cars out in hot climates, so the overseas customers had to do the development work just like on Jensen Interceptors and Triumph Stags !

[J Jones]

No front spoiler as yet, and only a bit of added insulation. The improved running temperature is due (so far) to:
   1) Replacing iron intake manifold, Iron heads and brass radiator with their aluminum counterparts.
   2) Replacing iron exhaust manifold with ceramic coated stainless steel headers.
   3) Replacing the whole exhaust system with ceramic coated stainless.
   4) Replacing C6 auto box with 5 speed manual transmission.
   5) Repurposing Transmission oil cooler to engine oil cooling. Installing remote oil filter.
   6) Installing radiator overflow tank (There wasn't one, resulting in fluid loss and air in the system)
   
   So far, these changes have made a big difference in running temperture. (note: It's not summer yet, still cool out now)
   There is still a lot of engine compartment air intrusion into the passenger compartment - because the change in transmission requires a change in the lower dash and and transmission tunnel covers. It's all open now - Soon to be fixed, I hope.

[Emmanueld]

Here are some pics of the new lip being installed on the wing:
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   It's been welded but it still needs to be ground. Then new back plates will be installed inside as well as an inner lip at the top on the inside. For this piece, I wished we could have had access to a spare wing as the job was very involved. No lead!
   
   Emmanuel [:)]