CSX 3360

[Mark IV]

quote:Originally posted by TLegate
   
What really annoyed him was the fact he could hear a busy machine shop working in the background but AC couldn't be bothered to make the part for him. He went to CP and Brian went into his workshop, made the part while he waited and gave it to him free of charge. How to make friends and influence future customers. I recall that AC had a pretty poor image amongst some folks back then, in them there far off days.
   

   
   FREE!?!?!
   
   T.L. we are talking about the SAME Angliss, correct?  I guess I came on the scene too late for such largess...........

[B.P.Bird]

On the subject of the original bucks my memories are not quite the same as previous posts. I saw several of the old Thames Ditton wooden bucks at the High Street works, then with Angliss at CP and Autokraft and, when he became A.C., at Brooklands. Lubinsky then became the custodian and these are now with  A.C. Heritage. In addition I used to see fibreglass bucks, in sections, from the early days of the Cobra, because they subcontracted for panels all over the place. When High Street closed some of these unwanted, subcontractor's, fibreglass bucks would no doubt have gone in to the skip and perhaps that is where the confusion arises? I asked David Sanderson for his memories and he agrees that both at Thames Ditton and with Angliss there were extra fibreglass sectional bucks produced for production purposes and that these were taken (via wheeled aluminium panels) from the 'master' wooden buck. As I remember production of the Mk. IV the wooden buck was not to be seen on the shop floor, only the sectional fibreglass bucks. Moreover David points out that the wooden bucks were changed, over time, to produce different body styles. As noted by Steve Gray the Mk. IV 'long nose' extension and David notes the addition of larger wheel arch lips on the Mk. I wooden buck to produce the Mk.II buck. The Mk. IV panels relate directly to the old Mk.III buck and I wonder why there is doubt that this was not with Angliss and now resides with A.C. Heritage? As I understand this thread it was fibreglass not wooden bucks that were seen going in to a skip? Conversely is it the proposition that the Mk. III buck only ever existed in fibreglass form and there was no wooden buck produced by the Thames Ditton chippies ? That would be a surprise.
   The whole question has got me thinking that the Club should make a list of where all the extant bucks (maybe including jigs, tooling and patterns) are and I have asked Andy: Perhaps The Council should consider the matter. For example I gather from David that The Greyhound buck is privately owned and we see in ACtion the brilliant news that a new 3000 ME body has just been produced. Just what does still exist and where and, more importantly, is it being kept safe?

[BBK]

quote:Originally posted by dkp_cobra
   

quote:Originally posted by BBK
   ....my paint is 25 years old and still looks almost new!  It is such a high quality car. I love it.
   

   
   That's interesting. Is it a low mileage car? When I bought my MK IV (first reg. 1984) it had a little bit more than 60T km on the clock and the paint was terrible. A lot of spiders and cracks but the original paint.
   

   
   For a 1987 car, it is relatively low mileage at around 23,000 + miles on it.  The car was driven and not a garage queen, but had sat a lot the last few years thus my need to do a lot of mechanical work to "freshen" things a bit, including the new heater core saga (thanks again Nik!).  The car has a few chips that have been filled in here and there, and some very minor road rash in front, but the overall paint is very deep and lustrous and shines beautifully.  The photo in this post of my car gives an idea, but it looks better in person.  I have all of the original paperwork and repair receipts from the original owner dating back to his correspondence with AC and Brian Angliss including the shipping manifest from the steamship it came in to the U.S. on, through the Port of Oakland (CA).  Not sure how many Mk IV's came to the U.S. this way than those sold by authorized dealers like Rick's (Mark IV).  The car was well cared for prior to my ownership of which I am thankful.

[BBK]

quote:Originally posted by B.P.Bird
   

   On the subject of the original bucks my memories are not quite the same as previous posts. I saw several of the old Thames Ditton wooden bucks at the High Street works, then with Angliss at CP and Autokraft and, when he became A.C., at Brooklands. Lubinsky then became the custodian and these are now with  A.C. Heritage. In addition I used to see fibreglass bucks, in sections, from the early days of the Cobra, because they subcontracted for panels all over the place. When High Street closed some of these unwanted, subcontractor's, fibreglass bucks would no doubt have gone in to the skip and perhaps that is where the confusion arises? I asked David Sanderson for his memories and he agrees that both at Thames Ditton and with Angliss there were extra fibreglass sectional bucks produced for production purposes and that these were taken (via wheeled aluminium panels) from the 'master' wooden buck. As I remember production of the Mk. IV the wooden buck was not to be seen on the shop floor, only the sectional fibreglass bucks. Moreover David points out that the wooden bucks were changed, over time, to produce different body styles. As noted by Steve Gray the Mk. IV 'long nose' extension and David notes the addition of larger wheel arch lips on the Mk. I wooden buck to produce the Mk.II buck. The Mk. IV panels relate directly to the old Mk.III buck and I wonder why there is doubt that this was not with Angliss and now resides with A.C. Heritage? As I understand this thread it was fibreglass not wooden bucks that were seen going in to a skip? Conversely is it the proposition that the Mk. III buck only ever existed in fibreglass form and there was no wooden buck produced by the Thames Ditton chippies ? That would be a surprise.
   The whole question has got me thinking that the Club should make a list of where all the extant bucks (maybe including jigs, tooling and patterns) are and I have asked Andy: Perhaps The Council should consider the matter. For example I gather from David that The Greyhound buck is privately owned and we see in ACtion the brilliant news that a new 3000 ME body has just been produced. Just what does still exist and where and, more importantly, is it being kept safe?
   
   

   
   A friend of mine from Sacramento went to the Goodwood event and took the following photo.  I imagine an number of our English friends on this forum and other ACOC members were there (one event on my bucket list!) and may have also seen this display.
   
   
   
   I think that Mr. Bird's suggesting is brilliant ("The whole question has got me thinking that the Club should make a list of where all the extant bucks (maybe including jigs, tooling and patterns) are and I have asked Andy: Perhaps The Council should consider the matter").  If there is a way to document the whereabouts of the original tooling (jigs, body bucks etc.) and to somehow take an inventory of what exists, who has it, what was disposed of, would be an important undertaking for historical reference purposes.  This would hopefully clear up any confusion on the matter.  Perhaps interviews with those "in the know" who used to work for AC, including those who are the current custodians of these important parts of AC history would be part of that undertaking.  Trevor, perhaps an idea for another book? [;)].  Hopefully, there was not a lot thrown away.  Back in the day perhaps when the Cobra was just a "used car", these things did not seem to matter as much for AC, especially if AC was not involved in making replacement parts and panels for Cobras back then (thus allowing Mr. Angliss to step into his important role in AC history).

[nikbj68]

Barrie`s car was parked 2 bays to the left of this display! What you can`t see on the right was an 'English' wheel and AC Heritage(Brooklands Motor Company) employees were demonstrating how the flat sheet on the left is transformed into the beautifully complex curved sections that make up the Cobra`s front end.
   I must get around to sorting & posting some photos!

[SunDude]

This looks like a 289 body buck to me.
   
   

quote:

[BBK]

Originally posted by SunDude
   
This looks like a 289 body buck to me.
   
   

It sure does, but the aluminum front body shell at the rear and right appear to be 427.  Would love to see any additional photos that Nik has of the event!

[nikbj68]

I think that buck at Goodwood is actually the RS(Zephyr engined)Ace buck, which was then susbsequently used for the Cobra, as it doesn`t look like it has flared arches.
   
   
   
   Artesan skills passing from generation to generation: note the Ace and 289 noses hanging on the right.
   
   
   
   

quote:Originally posted by B.P.Bird: On the subject of the original bucks...As I remember production of the Mk. IV the wooden buck was not to be seen on the shop floor, only the sectional fibreglass bucks...As I understand this thread it was fibreglass not wooden bucks that were seen going in to a skip? Conversely is it the proposition that the Mk. III buck only ever existed in fibreglass form and there was no wooden buck produced by the Thames Ditton chippies ? That would be a surprise.

Keith and a number of ACOC members visited the AC factory in September, 2000, and this photo he sent me could have been drawn from Barrie`s recollections!
   I suspect that the wooden buck in the foreground, being used to create an FiA-style front, is the same one as above[?]
   
   

[A-Snake]

quote:Originally posted by nikbj68
   
I think that buck at Goodwood is actually the RS(Zephyr engined)Ace buck, which was then susbsequently used for the Cobra, as it doesn`t look like it has flared arches.
   
   
   

   
   Nik,
   I understood that 289 street flares were "add-ons", meeting they were produced separately and then welded onto the fenders (wings). Wouldn't that mean that the flare section would not be on the buck?

[TLegate]

The wooden buck is the '289' shape. As shown in most of my books and even lurking in the photo on p208 in my best-selling, award-winning, classic tome "40 Years" (sorry about the cheap book selling job but I've got a warehouse to clear - anyone not got a copy yet?? :)

[nikbj68]

I`d agree with that, but were they only 'add-ons' because they weren`t on the RS Ace? Production of both did overlap, and after all of Alan Turner`s hard work redesigning the front end from Ace to RS, why reinvent the wheel, or fender, in this case?
   You`d have thought that accurate alignment of the flare would have been made harder by not having a flare on the buck to mount it on.
   I like the photo on p.196 of '40 Years' that shows the fitting of the flare to a MkIV.
   
   If this was the 'Thames Ditton master jig', would subcontractors have had Cobra formers with the flared lip on(which may have been lost too)?

[A-Snake]

289's street flares changed when wheels went from 5 1/2" to 6". I would only guess there was a separate form used to create the flare section.
   Many times when you look at a Cobra that has had body work you notice they no longer have the "crisp" original edge on the flares.

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by A-Snake: Many times when you look at a Cobra that has had body work you notice they no longer have the "crisp" original edge on the flares.

Keith told that the nose on Aces, early ones are crisp lines, the later ones a more 'muted' rolling edge, presumably from the former wearing over time.