What ought to be the true Market Value of a 428 ?

[Classicus]

Transferred the posts below originally on the thread "MA 200 - AC 428 Prototype" top of the second page, to this new specific thread as obviously it would be interesting to hear some owner's and other's thoughts on what they feel ought to be the true market value and possible future of the 428 as well.
   
   Anyone......? [:)]
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   Peterw11
   USA
   7 Posts  Posted - 11 December 2007 :  05:37:33
   
   

quote:As to the value of 428's on the classic car market, it doesn't appear to me that they seem to suffer that much relative to their direct competition, aside from Ferrari. Maserati, Bizzarini, Iso, Jensen, Lamborghini, Aston Martin all seem to hover around the same price range. Only Ferrari is worth more, model for model.
   
   Why? Because nothing else in the world is Ferrari, with the competition history, glittering clientele, reputation, etc. Plus Ferrari has that V12 engine.
   
   The 428 may be a better car in many ways, and a lot rarer as well, but if you put a Ferrari emblem on it, it's value would triple overnight.

   
   Posted - 13 December 2007 :  20:44:57
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   Hi Peter
   
   Obviously every classic car fan has their particular favourite make and model be it Cobra, Ferrari, Lambos across to Minis etc. and market values obviously try to reflect this. However with regard to the existing market values of the AC 428 which currently vary between roughly £40k - £70k, there are perhaps two lesser known additional facts and subsequent problems that I believe ought to be clearly highlighted beforehand when seen in tandem with their rarity. Firstly that the 428 has the same chassis as the Cobra although 6" longer, and secondly in the past perhaps because the body was too far gone a few were converted into Cobra etc. replicas.
   
   Reference the topic "How many Frua left ?" - bottom of main Forum Page 2 - sheet 1. And the posting quoted below on the 29th January 2007 -
   
   http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=1
   
   quote:
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   "....in the current issue of C&SC, page 178, there is a remarkable comment from a dealer (Hurst Park) who has a 428 for sale. He has had five calls from people wanting to convert it into a Cobra....!"
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   Referring to the Register this in all likelihood would have been either Query no. 5).(at the bottom) - Reg. No. NUJ 14, or chassis number CF 57, yet when you look at their pictures both appear to be in excellent condition.
   
   Unfortunately and in what is appearing to be a relatively new development, it would seem that now there are others out there who all of a sudden are very keen indeed to buy 428s and convert them into Cobra replicas as well. Most astonishingly almost regardless of condition, probably because they are well aware there are a lot of buyers out there interested in having one. Perhaps they think a brand new Cobra replica with an original AC chassis is somehow important, though what exactly is so special or what advantage or difference a 35 year old plus chassis has over a new one, especially in conjunction with today's road safety rules I cannot even begin to imagine; though obviously I accept having always been hopeless in all things mechanical doesn't exactly help.
   
   As to the costs of building such strange conversions I've no idea either.
   
   However when one next considers the example of Query no. 21). near the bottom of the Register....
   
   http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=548&whichpage=1
   
   ....where a former 428 chassis with a Cobra replica body is or was (?) recently advertised for sale in Germany at the astonishing figure of nearly 200,000 Euros or almost £140k it would appear, short of any other logical explanations, that yet again it is the 428 chassis that is worth such money whilst the rest of the body is presumably….what ? Worthless ? Taken all round the whole subject does start to raise some very worrying thoughts indeed, especially as such work could have been carried out by anyone.
   
   Whatever the real reasons they're obviously unimportant and irrelevant, but what it does mean I believe is that in order to prevent all remaining 428s suffering a similarly ignominious fate, an immediate and thorough re-appraisal and re-evaluation of the market value of both AC 428 Frua models is now extremely urgent and vital and not left until it is too late. Ideally always seeking to maintain their value, regardless of condition, some 15% - 20% above the highest prices that all existing 428/ Cobra conversion replicas are fetching at any given time. In other words to employ whatever means are deemed necessary that will make it hopelessly uneconomical to ever consider the wanton destruction of any AC 428 Frua again. In addition, and above all, to ensure that such means help to permanently protect, maintain and cherish the few, now extremely rare, important and genuinely exclusive examples remaining of a brilliant 1960's concept and design from the house of a highly respected and long established British manufacturer.
   
   Or perhaps I should put it all a little more bluntly. Depending on condition and if I owned one I would not think of insuring or dream of selling it as of today for anything less than around £150k - £175k. Minimum. Why should I ? So that some total stranger without a shred of personal interest in the car, its history or its rarity should make an outrageous profit not only from its unnecessary and callous destruction but to add insult to injury all at my expense as well ? I'm afraid not. [:)]
   
   Cass
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   Peterw11
   
   USA
   7 Posts     Posted - 14 December 2007 :  00:33:41
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   Same thing was/is happening to the less valuable V12 Ferrari models, particularly the 250 and 330 2+2's. They take the engine and drive train and build a GTO or Testa Rossa around it. Even a replica can sell for 10 times what a 2+2 is worth on it's best day

[Emmanueld]

Classicus, I think the problem with the 428 is:
   
   1) A lot of them, especially coupes are rotten. The very poor quality of Italian steel and almost no body parts. Everything has to be made. I can understand a guy who buys one of these and it's in very poor condition missing a lot of trim. So cut the chassis and put Kirkham body and here is an AC Cobra with DMV papers. Meanwhile the rest of the parts should be sold to owners of other 428s'.
   2) The car is not well known to most people. You will tell me "Oh well look a Bizzarini prices! But these were raced and are well known.
   
   But in recent years the price has gone up and unless a car is in very bad shape, you are not going to see many conversions anymore.
   
   Even the less valuable V12 Ferrari models (2+2s) are now going up in price and are now well over $100K over here.
   
   Emmanuel

[Classicus]

Hi Emmanuel [:)]
   
   So what would you therefore consider to be the true Market Value of a 428 today ?
   
   Cass

[Emmanueld]

Difficult to access but looking at everything else, $150 to S175K for the coupe and 200 to 250K for the roadster should be the cars true market value considering performance, rarity and pedigree. I think we will get there if the quality of the cars that are offered for sale improves, that is when only restored cars make it to auctions.
   
   Emmanuel

[Classicus]

Emmanuel I'm not sure if you've understood the point I'm trying to make.
   
   Things are changing rapidly. It's the 428's chassis, not the body, that is now fast becoming the most important and critical issue concerning the car's final true market value. Because as I've already explained there are now people out there who couldn't care less what condition the car is or which model it is either. Concours or rotten, fastback or convertible it's unimportant, these vultures are after the chassis alone. Nothing else. They're therefore more than prepared to buy any 428 up for sale at current prices and at any time just so as to build yet another Cobra replica body, despite the fact there are barely a handful of 428s left in the world as against loads of new and second hand Cobra replicas. Don't ask me what sort of person would even consider buying such a "new" car coupled with a 35 year old plus chassis for the sort of money they're asking. Either they've definitely got a screw loose or more likely more money than they know what to do with. For a good example of such crazy prices see the 428/ Cobra conversion in Query 21. over on the Register that is or was for sale at just under £140k ! Yet the upshot of all this wretched greed for profit means that sadly yet another 428 will have been destroyed and lost for ever. And I'm sure you must agree it's all got to be stopped just as quickly as possible before it gets too late.
   
   Clear proof of all this, again as I've already said, is that Hurst Park a highly reputable garage close by Thames Ditton who've been buying and selling 428s for some 40 years or so, had no less than 5 enquiries recently for a 428 they were selling in excellent condition to convert it into a Cobra as well ! In all probability this was CF 57 a silver fastback which was up for sale either late last year or earlier this year at about £60k ! You can in fact see pictures of its excellent condition taken at the time of sale over on the Register as well. Also and as a direct result of this an article appeared in the magazine C&SC (Dec '06/ Jan. '07 ?) page 178, as it was all so new and unusual. (All this was referred to in my first post earlier.)
   
   Finally it is precisely because there are so very few 428s left and time is running out fast why I feel given these new circumstances that a completely new standard valuation of a 428's chassis alone is now the only possible solution, scrapping for good all current valuations for the AC 428 as a car. Ideally a figure some 15% - 20% above the highest priced 428/ Cobra conversion currently up for sale at any given time, as it should then automatically make it far too expensive to ever think of destroying any further 428 bodies for Cobra replicas again. And why depending on condition, all 428's chassis true market value as of today ought to start at around £150k - £175k if the car as a whole is ever going to stand a decent chance of long term survival.
   
   Or to put it another way for all owners and as a 428 owner yourself. If overnight you discovered that your car currently valued at between £40k to £70k, now because of its ridiculously valuable chassis and after proper valuation had suddenly not only become worth perhaps some £100k in addition, but that you were also guaranteeing its long term survival as well, can anyone really afford delaying going into the idea of such chassis valuations much longer ?
   
   Cass

[cliffordl]

I quite agree with the thoughts that 428 conversion to Cobra is something all 428 owners would wish to avoid but at the end of the day market forces will decide. Furthermore whilst there may have been several enquiries about converting the Hurst Park cars did either of them get bought for such a purpose?
   
   Looking at the last three convertibles coming up for auction there was CF9 at Bonhams in middling condition(£48K) which is now in Belgium being restored, then mine also at Bonhams (in a poor state and surely ripe for conversion) which I bought to rolling restore (£40K)then the real nice Ecurie Ecosse example with great provenance which really didn't look all that expensive at £70K.
   
   I know of one coupe currently undergoing a very deluxe restoration (£120K+)here in the UK.
   
   So all in all until we actually know for sure that a 428 has been chopped then maybe we should all feel less paranoid about the Cobra constructors.
   
   Of course a change of name to say 'AC 428 Cobra' would no doubt put 20% on values[;)]

[Emmanueld]

I don't think it will be a problem anymore, cheaper and easier to put a Kirkham together. You guys, restore your 428s to a high standard and value will rise on it's own. Have fun in the process. What other car has the lineage the Frua has in the same price range, you tell me? These cars need to be shown at car shows, they need to be driven and seen, very few people have actually seen one, that how you generate interest. My 428 is now almost as fast as my Kirkham was, and it feels about the same as far as handling is concerned, that why I sold the Kirkham. I love to humiliate unsuspecting modern Porsche or Ferrari owners. I used to own a Euro specs Aston V8 Vantage and the 428 is lighter, quicker and handles way better than the Aston. As a matter of fact, my 428 as currently set up, is one of the quickest car I have ever driven period.
   
   Emmanuel

[Classicus]

It would also be extremely valuable publicity to the "Cause" as well as fantastic all round if you could persuade a top USA Classic Car mag to do a full Road Test now she's finished ! I couldn't wait to read it !! [8D]

[Emmanueld]

Not painted yet!
   
   Emmanuel

[Classicus]

Big opportunity, what colour would look best on the front cover !! [:D]

[Emmanueld]

BRG of course!
   
   E

[Classicus]

Just makin' sure [8D]

[Classicus]

One way or another I still feel it's vital to be sharply forewarned and forearmed of this whole new developing situation as quickly as possible, rather than letting things drift aimlessly on until it's suddenly discovered too late that yet another 428 quietly got the chop several months previously or worrying about whether it might be paranoid or not.
   
   Because from now on unfortunately the underlying problem will always be what guarantee is there that the next buyer of a 428 is not going to convert it into yet another Cobra replica and immediately make himself a nice fat profit ? And because regardless of condition this temptation is always going to be there, it's only human for any owner to instinctively think "hey why should he have it when I could have it instead ?"
   
   The fact remains that a 428/ Cobra conversion is or was officially up for sale recently in Germany for the incredible price of now nearly £146k, and why to prevent such future conversions all AC 428 Fruas in the interests of their long term survival now need to be urgently revalued in line with these new market forces as soon as possible.
   
   In the meantime depending on condition it's reasonable to ask which option for insurance valuation purposes would any 428 owner now choose as from today ? Leave things as they are? From £70k to £150k ? From £150k upwards ?
   
   Or succumb to temptation instead ?