Original Cobra : An outsider's view point

[SJ351]

A very good friend of mine locally is a car dealer and specialises in prestige modern motors : Porsche/Ferrari/Aston/Bentley etc. My enthiusiasm for Cobras over many many years has now rubbed off on him and he has  decided that he would like to purchase a genuine Thames Ditton MK11 Cobra to stage his mid-life crisis. We have been debating things at length over the Christmas period and I have warned him of the many copies/clones/severely historic race damaged/fire damaged cars that still exist in 'rebuilt' form, many with barely any original Thames Ditton fabricated parts remaining, some with major chassis sections replaced etc. Not all of this is declared in the public domain either of course, although these cars are well known in Cobra circles and one only has to ask the right people.  He is horified that so many Cobras seem to have such a chequered past and his attitude is that this would immediately render any of the cars he deals in as 'dead in the water'. We have discussed the 'continuous history argument' - the esoteric view that a car somehow has a spirit that can waft its way into a new Angliss/Kirkham built body-chassis unit. He scoffs at this and his comment was 'Who invented the term 'continuous history'? The person who produced the copy'? I am sure the right car will present itself at some point but it has been interesting getting the thoughts of a Cobra outsider for a change, as opposed to our own sometimes rose tinted view of the past.

[SB7019]

Very interesting perspective indeed.
   
   My rose tinted view is that he is used to dealing with marques whose production totals in a few months ( about a week in the case of Porsche) exceed the number AC managed to make in 100+ years.
   
   As a result virtually all AC's are well known and documented by either the ACOC or SAAC.  Any car whose provenance is not verifiable can be avoided or priced accordingly.  Caveat emptor applies, as always, but there is ample opportunity to become aware ( and thus beware)  of the true nature and history of an AC.
   
   This forum is also a great place to find out about any car that is being contemplated.

[rsk289]

I think the key word in your post is 'modern' motors.  They haven't been around long enough for the shenanigans to have happened yet - and they are probably not the sort of cars made in very limited numbers with a very strong competition emphasis on their use in period.  This does not apply only to Cobras by any means.  Ask the owners of Lotus Cortinas, Mini Cooper Ss, 'Shelby' Mustangs, etc. etc...

[TLegate]

I wonder want the dealer wants and expects from a Cobra? Does he plan to use it or park it in a collection in a nice warm garage? There are few 'genuine all-original' Cobras left but you could probably count them on your fingers. As these are fifty-year old cars, they have been used, abused and repaired so every Cobra has parts that did not originate from Thames Ditton. That hardly impacts on their market value. Replacement parts had to be sourced from a range of suppliers - spares were virtually unobtainable from the factory from around 1970 as AC didn't carry (or couldn't afford to carry) any stock, hence the rise and rise of Brian Angliss and others who stepped into the breach.

[SJ351]

He wants good 'no stories' car that he can take out for a good thrash down to Goodwood Breakfast Club etc. He does'nt spare the horses so it will be driven hard and kept clean. He has been looking at the Shelby Register and gleaning information. However, the current registers do differ from past publications where some cars seem to have been changed as to what they once were classified as eg a 'replica' now classed a few years later as a restored car. This is possibly a reflection of commerciality and the need for the publisher to sell copies to willing owners each time a new one comes out. I have always loved the term 'air car' i.e. appeared out of thin air.
   
   It is always difficult for an owner, but it would be nice if there were more transparency out there. In the UK, we live very close by the original factories and I know many of the past employees personally. We often chat about the various cars that have been through the workshops - 'that car caught fire in the paint oven'/'put a new front end and spring tower on that in 1986'/'that one was driven into another car by an apprentice and we fixed it without the owner ever knowing' is the sort of general stuff but, no mention of this in the Registers or history in many cases - understandable from the owner's point of view of course but, nice for any purchaser to know in advance. For us though, the integrity of the original chassis is everything. It is the backbone of the car and stamped with its own identity by the factory. Everything else from there is more open to debate perhaps but, the chassis is king. There are still quite a few fully original cars out there, some that have only had some very minor paintwork or, been restored with virtually all the original parts..
   
   My friend is becoming a bit disillusioned with it all and beginning to think he might just as well buy a Kirkham or possibly a Mk1V and save a lot of money. However, he will persevere for the time being. As I have said before, I do pity anyone trying to purchase a Cobra and relying on published information alone. In many ways it does I think de-value the truly original cars - greater transparency again would help these owners realise full value when it is time to sell.

[A-Snake]

quote:Originally posted by SJ351
   

   
   My friend is becoming a bit disillusioned with it all and beginning to think he might just as well buy a Kirkham or possibly a Mk1V and save a lot of money. However, he will persevere for the time being. As I have said before, I do pity anyone trying to purchase a Cobra and relying on published information alone. In many ways it does I think de-value the truly original cars - greater transparency again would help these owners realise full value when it is time to sell.
   

   Yes, buying any 'collector' car requires a lot of homework. Just reading published information will not do it. If there is serious interest in a certain original Cobra, be sure to at least contact the Registrar for the latest information on the car.
   As to your question about transparency, how would you suggest that information be garnered? Not all owners want the negatives known about their car [;)]

[TLegate]

As the 'market value' of the Cobra rises ever upwards, so the potential for being economical with the truth increases in a similar fashion. Let's a say a famous early Cobra with impeccable race provenance came onto the market and the seller accepted a substantial offer of, say, twice it's worth if it still had the original chassis. Would he (or you...or me) let the buyer know it was actually two chassis cut-and-joined? If you did, you be assured your place in heaven but whilst still on this planet, you would have kissed goodbye to at least £400,000 - what to do? (For the record - no the seller did not tell buyer). It seems that it's more important to have the original title and paperwork that rely on the car having a chassis from the 1960s!
   
   If I wanted a 'Cobra' to ride hard and put away wet, I'd go down the Kirkham route. I base this on previous experience but that's just my lousy opinion - other opinions are available :) (and might well appear here later...)

[SJ351]

A very good point Trevor, and Mr Kirkham definitely makes exceedingly good copies, although some of the dimensions are not actually correct. Owners are hardly incentivised to tell compromising truths and, worse still, have them appear in print. There are some dead giveaways I have seen in the past though e.g. on chassis : Different welds/non-period welding techniques/new metal next to pitted metal/suspect looking chassis number stampings/blueing due to fire damage/marks from jig pulling.
   It is best for any prospective owner to approach with caution, regard any register entry as open to speculation and get an independent third party to appraise a car with  a restorer's eye. This will eliminate many issues at outset. Then talk to original factory employees about their particular recollections e.g. Parts of chassis/body fabricated and supplied for repairs etc.

[Cobra Ned]

There is only so much anyone who attempts to assemble information can do to exclude erroneous facts, and yes, owners are obviously reluctant to discuss negative issues about their cars. The net result is that any register (registry) is only as good as its contributors' honesty will allow. In the case of anyone demanding a car with no prior issues, the best bet is to buy a car one has known since new. Of course, that essentially precludes someone who arrives late to the party, or who has decided he likes a given marque after 50 years' worth of shenanigans might easily have occurred. If there is no alternative to a perfect car, then a new reproduction could be the most logical answer. For the rest of us, patina is perfectly acceptable.

[TLegate]

And we do like a spot of patina do we not, Lord Ned? Welcome to the party, UK style :)

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by Cobra Ned...If there is no alternative to a perfect car, then a new reproduction could be the most logical answer. For the rest of us, patina is perfectly acceptable.

   Beautifully put, Sir! Welcome 'over here'! Vive la Patina! [8D]
   
   Steve, your friend has to be vigilant, but what is the good of a car with 'NO stories'?! [;)]
   Yeah, I know what 'no sories' means, but there are good ones that DO turn up, with good stories such as COB6107.
   
   OR,
   
    I could point him in the direction of a seriously quick Cobra that`s got a less pristine history and appearance, and is consequently 'easier on the wallet',
   BUT: You could drive it like you stole it, scare the crap out of yourself, not worry about stonechips, put it away dirty and have THE BIGGEST grin on your face for days afterwards! [:D]
   
   Much as I love COB6107, I`d rather have the other one! [8D]
   
   Do you suspect your friend might 'get over' his crisis and long for flappy-paddled, airconditioned alcantara carbonfibre luxury before long? That could have a BIG bearing on which would be the most appropriate Cobra for him.

[aaron]

"Just reading published information will not do it. If there is serious interest in a certain original Cobra, be sure to at least contact the Registrar for the latest information on the car. "
   
   
   "The net result is that any register (registry) is only as good as its contributors' honesty will allow."

[SJ351]

COB 6107 is indeed a fine specimen Nick. I fixed an electrical fault on the cooling fan circuit for the owner at the LeMans Classic in 2012.
   The wiring loom was decidedly 'original'!
   I advised him to get it fixed pronto before another bonfire of the vanities....
   I liked the purple interior too.